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Writing in a Christian voice
When to use the character's name and when to use she/he?Level of detail in description of character checking the newsAngry tone of voice in a questionWhat is generally the accepted format style for telepathic communication in the midst of verbal communication?Writing for a broad spectrum of readers. How do you engage the elite whilst appealing to the base?Right approach to introduce a character on a scriptCan religions like Islam or Hinduism be represented respectfully in a fictionalized/fantastical Earth?Invoking Deliberate Values DissonancePunctuating dialogue that is interrupted by thoughts/internal monologue rather than action?Making him into a bully (how to show mild violence)
I'm Jewish. My middle-grade fantasy novel is very Jewish. Most of my characters are either Jews or converts/future converts or people with at least one Jewish grandparent. But some are not.
My main character, Ruth age 12, is 100% of Jewish ancestry but has been raised secular. She lives in the United States in 1995. She starts to get external thoughts in her head about religious things, leading her to organize her family's first Passover seder. Then she hears voices. (Later, she starts to have visions—quick time-travel flashes to Ancient Egypt—but she doesn't mention them here.)
She confides in Phoebe, her best friend who is also her first cousin. Phoebe's mother, Pam, overhears and joins the conversation. Pam was raised in a black Baptist church in Houston, Texas and married a Jewish man she met in college. Then they moved back to his small town in Arizona.
In this scene, Ruth tells Pam about the voices and experiences she's had and Pam tries to help her make sense of it. In the book, the direct voice is a character from Ancient Egypt calling to her and I do not say if the supernatural events that occur are due to "God" or to "magic." It's open to the reader's interpretation.
At this point in the book, it's early, nothing obvious has happened yet, and Ruth and Phoebe don't know if Ruth's experiences are real or, as Phoebe suspects, all in Ruth's head. Pam doesn't know either but is inclined to consider it possible that God is involved.
I wrote the scene, my Jewish spouse thought it was fine, and then I showed it to my critique group. It was way off. I rewrote it some then showed it to a close friend who is an Evangelical Christian. Still way off. The problem is Pam's voice. I am not capturing how a Baptist (or any religious Christian) would express herself in this type of situation.
How do I portray this character with an authentic Christian voice? Both what she brings to the conversation (what is important to her) and how she expresses her thoughts and concerns.
fiction character-development dialogue fantasy voice
|
show 5 more comments
I'm Jewish. My middle-grade fantasy novel is very Jewish. Most of my characters are either Jews or converts/future converts or people with at least one Jewish grandparent. But some are not.
My main character, Ruth age 12, is 100% of Jewish ancestry but has been raised secular. She lives in the United States in 1995. She starts to get external thoughts in her head about religious things, leading her to organize her family's first Passover seder. Then she hears voices. (Later, she starts to have visions—quick time-travel flashes to Ancient Egypt—but she doesn't mention them here.)
She confides in Phoebe, her best friend who is also her first cousin. Phoebe's mother, Pam, overhears and joins the conversation. Pam was raised in a black Baptist church in Houston, Texas and married a Jewish man she met in college. Then they moved back to his small town in Arizona.
In this scene, Ruth tells Pam about the voices and experiences she's had and Pam tries to help her make sense of it. In the book, the direct voice is a character from Ancient Egypt calling to her and I do not say if the supernatural events that occur are due to "God" or to "magic." It's open to the reader's interpretation.
At this point in the book, it's early, nothing obvious has happened yet, and Ruth and Phoebe don't know if Ruth's experiences are real or, as Phoebe suspects, all in Ruth's head. Pam doesn't know either but is inclined to consider it possible that God is involved.
I wrote the scene, my Jewish spouse thought it was fine, and then I showed it to my critique group. It was way off. I rewrote it some then showed it to a close friend who is an Evangelical Christian. Still way off. The problem is Pam's voice. I am not capturing how a Baptist (or any religious Christian) would express herself in this type of situation.
How do I portray this character with an authentic Christian voice? Both what she brings to the conversation (what is important to her) and how she expresses her thoughts and concerns.
fiction character-development dialogue fantasy voice
1
What was the criticism: was the character "thinking like a Jew", "a caricature of a Christian", or just "off"?
– Galastel
10 hours ago
8
I think you may need to refine what you're asking a bit, because you've happened to pick somebody from one of the more flamboyant protestant denominations. Black Southern Baptists are very, very different from most Christians. I'm not giving an answer, because I could only give the answer from the perspective of a white boy agnostic raised in a Methodist church, who has spent a grand total of two hours in a black Southern Baptist church for funerals. That experience has only been enough to convince me I do not know enough to give an accurate answer.
– Ed Grimm
10 hours ago
6
Some American Christian sects have jargon that sounds like something between sales team motivational speak, and codewords. I found the concepts weren't difficult, but I wasn't able to imitate their vocabulary…. No idea if that's what your readers didn't hear, or they felt she didn't sound like her background should, or if her religious views were off. Since you don't say specificly I assume they didn't either…. The character would have different ideas depending on how "strict" her church is (Baptists in general tend to be more emotional/charismatic than scripture/doctrine).
– wetcircuit
9 hours ago
1
@Galastel "thinking like a Jew." And it's true. I live in a country where Christianity is mainstream, where things deemed "secular" are actually Christian-based, so of course I'm pretty familiar with Christian culture and organization. A lot more than my friends who grew up in countries without a strong Christian presence are. But there's a lot I don't know, mainly how Christians talk to each other (or to their non-Christian family members).
– Cyn
8 hours ago
1
@EdGrimm I would find other Christian perspectives helpful. Label it well of course. Methodists are more like Baptists than either is like Jews.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
I'm Jewish. My middle-grade fantasy novel is very Jewish. Most of my characters are either Jews or converts/future converts or people with at least one Jewish grandparent. But some are not.
My main character, Ruth age 12, is 100% of Jewish ancestry but has been raised secular. She lives in the United States in 1995. She starts to get external thoughts in her head about religious things, leading her to organize her family's first Passover seder. Then she hears voices. (Later, she starts to have visions—quick time-travel flashes to Ancient Egypt—but she doesn't mention them here.)
She confides in Phoebe, her best friend who is also her first cousin. Phoebe's mother, Pam, overhears and joins the conversation. Pam was raised in a black Baptist church in Houston, Texas and married a Jewish man she met in college. Then they moved back to his small town in Arizona.
In this scene, Ruth tells Pam about the voices and experiences she's had and Pam tries to help her make sense of it. In the book, the direct voice is a character from Ancient Egypt calling to her and I do not say if the supernatural events that occur are due to "God" or to "magic." It's open to the reader's interpretation.
At this point in the book, it's early, nothing obvious has happened yet, and Ruth and Phoebe don't know if Ruth's experiences are real or, as Phoebe suspects, all in Ruth's head. Pam doesn't know either but is inclined to consider it possible that God is involved.
I wrote the scene, my Jewish spouse thought it was fine, and then I showed it to my critique group. It was way off. I rewrote it some then showed it to a close friend who is an Evangelical Christian. Still way off. The problem is Pam's voice. I am not capturing how a Baptist (or any religious Christian) would express herself in this type of situation.
How do I portray this character with an authentic Christian voice? Both what she brings to the conversation (what is important to her) and how she expresses her thoughts and concerns.
fiction character-development dialogue fantasy voice
I'm Jewish. My middle-grade fantasy novel is very Jewish. Most of my characters are either Jews or converts/future converts or people with at least one Jewish grandparent. But some are not.
My main character, Ruth age 12, is 100% of Jewish ancestry but has been raised secular. She lives in the United States in 1995. She starts to get external thoughts in her head about religious things, leading her to organize her family's first Passover seder. Then she hears voices. (Later, she starts to have visions—quick time-travel flashes to Ancient Egypt—but she doesn't mention them here.)
She confides in Phoebe, her best friend who is also her first cousin. Phoebe's mother, Pam, overhears and joins the conversation. Pam was raised in a black Baptist church in Houston, Texas and married a Jewish man she met in college. Then they moved back to his small town in Arizona.
In this scene, Ruth tells Pam about the voices and experiences she's had and Pam tries to help her make sense of it. In the book, the direct voice is a character from Ancient Egypt calling to her and I do not say if the supernatural events that occur are due to "God" or to "magic." It's open to the reader's interpretation.
At this point in the book, it's early, nothing obvious has happened yet, and Ruth and Phoebe don't know if Ruth's experiences are real or, as Phoebe suspects, all in Ruth's head. Pam doesn't know either but is inclined to consider it possible that God is involved.
I wrote the scene, my Jewish spouse thought it was fine, and then I showed it to my critique group. It was way off. I rewrote it some then showed it to a close friend who is an Evangelical Christian. Still way off. The problem is Pam's voice. I am not capturing how a Baptist (or any religious Christian) would express herself in this type of situation.
How do I portray this character with an authentic Christian voice? Both what she brings to the conversation (what is important to her) and how she expresses her thoughts and concerns.
fiction character-development dialogue fantasy voice
fiction character-development dialogue fantasy voice
asked 10 hours ago
CynCyn
13.9k12768
13.9k12768
1
What was the criticism: was the character "thinking like a Jew", "a caricature of a Christian", or just "off"?
– Galastel
10 hours ago
8
I think you may need to refine what you're asking a bit, because you've happened to pick somebody from one of the more flamboyant protestant denominations. Black Southern Baptists are very, very different from most Christians. I'm not giving an answer, because I could only give the answer from the perspective of a white boy agnostic raised in a Methodist church, who has spent a grand total of two hours in a black Southern Baptist church for funerals. That experience has only been enough to convince me I do not know enough to give an accurate answer.
– Ed Grimm
10 hours ago
6
Some American Christian sects have jargon that sounds like something between sales team motivational speak, and codewords. I found the concepts weren't difficult, but I wasn't able to imitate their vocabulary…. No idea if that's what your readers didn't hear, or they felt she didn't sound like her background should, or if her religious views were off. Since you don't say specificly I assume they didn't either…. The character would have different ideas depending on how "strict" her church is (Baptists in general tend to be more emotional/charismatic than scripture/doctrine).
– wetcircuit
9 hours ago
1
@Galastel "thinking like a Jew." And it's true. I live in a country where Christianity is mainstream, where things deemed "secular" are actually Christian-based, so of course I'm pretty familiar with Christian culture and organization. A lot more than my friends who grew up in countries without a strong Christian presence are. But there's a lot I don't know, mainly how Christians talk to each other (or to their non-Christian family members).
– Cyn
8 hours ago
1
@EdGrimm I would find other Christian perspectives helpful. Label it well of course. Methodists are more like Baptists than either is like Jews.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
1
What was the criticism: was the character "thinking like a Jew", "a caricature of a Christian", or just "off"?
– Galastel
10 hours ago
8
I think you may need to refine what you're asking a bit, because you've happened to pick somebody from one of the more flamboyant protestant denominations. Black Southern Baptists are very, very different from most Christians. I'm not giving an answer, because I could only give the answer from the perspective of a white boy agnostic raised in a Methodist church, who has spent a grand total of two hours in a black Southern Baptist church for funerals. That experience has only been enough to convince me I do not know enough to give an accurate answer.
– Ed Grimm
10 hours ago
6
Some American Christian sects have jargon that sounds like something between sales team motivational speak, and codewords. I found the concepts weren't difficult, but I wasn't able to imitate their vocabulary…. No idea if that's what your readers didn't hear, or they felt she didn't sound like her background should, or if her religious views were off. Since you don't say specificly I assume they didn't either…. The character would have different ideas depending on how "strict" her church is (Baptists in general tend to be more emotional/charismatic than scripture/doctrine).
– wetcircuit
9 hours ago
1
@Galastel "thinking like a Jew." And it's true. I live in a country where Christianity is mainstream, where things deemed "secular" are actually Christian-based, so of course I'm pretty familiar with Christian culture and organization. A lot more than my friends who grew up in countries without a strong Christian presence are. But there's a lot I don't know, mainly how Christians talk to each other (or to their non-Christian family members).
– Cyn
8 hours ago
1
@EdGrimm I would find other Christian perspectives helpful. Label it well of course. Methodists are more like Baptists than either is like Jews.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
1
1
What was the criticism: was the character "thinking like a Jew", "a caricature of a Christian", or just "off"?
– Galastel
10 hours ago
What was the criticism: was the character "thinking like a Jew", "a caricature of a Christian", or just "off"?
– Galastel
10 hours ago
8
8
I think you may need to refine what you're asking a bit, because you've happened to pick somebody from one of the more flamboyant protestant denominations. Black Southern Baptists are very, very different from most Christians. I'm not giving an answer, because I could only give the answer from the perspective of a white boy agnostic raised in a Methodist church, who has spent a grand total of two hours in a black Southern Baptist church for funerals. That experience has only been enough to convince me I do not know enough to give an accurate answer.
– Ed Grimm
10 hours ago
I think you may need to refine what you're asking a bit, because you've happened to pick somebody from one of the more flamboyant protestant denominations. Black Southern Baptists are very, very different from most Christians. I'm not giving an answer, because I could only give the answer from the perspective of a white boy agnostic raised in a Methodist church, who has spent a grand total of two hours in a black Southern Baptist church for funerals. That experience has only been enough to convince me I do not know enough to give an accurate answer.
– Ed Grimm
10 hours ago
6
6
Some American Christian sects have jargon that sounds like something between sales team motivational speak, and codewords. I found the concepts weren't difficult, but I wasn't able to imitate their vocabulary…. No idea if that's what your readers didn't hear, or they felt she didn't sound like her background should, or if her religious views were off. Since you don't say specificly I assume they didn't either…. The character would have different ideas depending on how "strict" her church is (Baptists in general tend to be more emotional/charismatic than scripture/doctrine).
– wetcircuit
9 hours ago
Some American Christian sects have jargon that sounds like something between sales team motivational speak, and codewords. I found the concepts weren't difficult, but I wasn't able to imitate their vocabulary…. No idea if that's what your readers didn't hear, or they felt she didn't sound like her background should, or if her religious views were off. Since you don't say specificly I assume they didn't either…. The character would have different ideas depending on how "strict" her church is (Baptists in general tend to be more emotional/charismatic than scripture/doctrine).
– wetcircuit
9 hours ago
1
1
@Galastel "thinking like a Jew." And it's true. I live in a country where Christianity is mainstream, where things deemed "secular" are actually Christian-based, so of course I'm pretty familiar with Christian culture and organization. A lot more than my friends who grew up in countries without a strong Christian presence are. But there's a lot I don't know, mainly how Christians talk to each other (or to their non-Christian family members).
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@Galastel "thinking like a Jew." And it's true. I live in a country where Christianity is mainstream, where things deemed "secular" are actually Christian-based, so of course I'm pretty familiar with Christian culture and organization. A lot more than my friends who grew up in countries without a strong Christian presence are. But there's a lot I don't know, mainly how Christians talk to each other (or to their non-Christian family members).
– Cyn
8 hours ago
1
1
@EdGrimm I would find other Christian perspectives helpful. Label it well of course. Methodists are more like Baptists than either is like Jews.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@EdGrimm I would find other Christian perspectives helpful. Label it well of course. Methodists are more like Baptists than either is like Jews.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
Read authentic Christian voices
Find works written by religious Christians on religious subjects, and read them. These can either be non-fiction works, or stories with religious themes. Ideally, you'll read both. Try to find a variety of voices, and consider how the authors' other demographics (and their specific denomination) will affect their voices as well. (Works about non-religious matters by religious authors will also be useful, but the unique qualities of their voice may be harder to separate.)
When it comes time to create the character's voice, remember that they are more than just their religious identity - they need more to their voice than just the elements that you've identified as Christian.
Practice by writing from the character's POV, ideally in first person
The best way to fully master a character's voice is to dive into their head and tell the story from their point of view. Don't worry about the fact that this work won't make it into the final book, write it anyways. You can either write the scenes of your story that this character is a part of, or different scenes that are important to the character but unrelated to the story that you are telling, or even just a day in their life.
Keep writing until you feel like you understand their voice, and then return to writing your main story from it's regular POV, and you will likely find that when it comes time to add this character's voice in third person, it will come to you much easier, and stay distinct from the other voices.
In addition, diving into the character's head will probably deepen your understanding of the character and expand their personality, so that's a side benefit.
Thanks. I feel like I have a good handle on Pam's character aside from this bit. I have friends who are charismatic/evangelical Christians (I understand the split from doctrinal but get hung up on the specific label differences). I agree with reading works and I have, both fiction and nonfiction. The latter is mostly Biblical commentaries as I've been researching that extensively for the book and they often come up when I'm searching. I'm having problems translating this all into dialogue for this scene though.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
4
Also, for speech patterns in particular and in the US (don't know about elsewhere): Sunday morning TV; there's usually something on one of those local channels you usually skip past because they never have anything you actually want to watch.
– Monica Cellio♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Pam might also consider that some supernatural forces other than God are involved. Basically, four possibilities spring to mind:
- This is the legitimate voice of God speaking
- This is some other supernatural force, which might be heavenly angelic, or supernaturally demonic
- This might be a biological issue, caused by some insanity, brain tumor, or other problem. (In other words, Ruth might be honest, thinking what she is saying, even if such a voice is not actually happening anywhere outside of her head.)
- Ruth might be lying
The first one-and-a-half of those sound very, very good. The second two-and-a-half of those sound very, very bad. Perhaps your audience is innately skeptical of Pam just embracing Ruth's claims without having any sense of fear of the latter possibilities. Any of those problems (spiritual, biological, or moral) are quite undesirable.
If Pam is a woman who is full of faith, she might be perfectly willing to believe those first (more positive) possibilities. However, using wisdom, she may want to approach Ruth's claims with significant caution until Pam is more comfortable with what she is dealing with. A common approach would be to seek God's insight, especially involving prayer, and preferably through inviting Ruth to pray with her. (Remember, Christians view their God as being the same as the God of Orthodox Judaism. So Ruth might or might not agree enough to be comfortable with Pam's invitation, but from Pam's Christian perspective, such a prayer may not seem inappropriate, at least if Ruth is comfortable enough to accept the invitation, and so Pam may feel quite comfortable to make such an offer.)
I'm discounting a 5th possibility:
- magic
From a common Christian biblical perspective, sorcery and even evil miracles are mentioned in the bible, but churches often just describe such effects as the result of the second bullet point mentioned above. So, while your literary work might (eventually) identify that as actual reality, that's not particularly a very "Christian" perspective (at least, not in modernized Western civilization) for Pam to be naturally inclined to start thinking along those lines first.
add a comment |
Perhaps the crux of the problem is you are thinking of Pam as a Baptist.
While I was in the hospital, I befriended a former missionary who had spent twenty five years in China. I made the mistake of referring to him and his wife as religious. She let it pass once, but on the second time she told me she was not religious - she and her husband were people of FAITH. Her emphasis, not mine.
She went on to explain that ‘religious’ was restricting and narrow, making it seem like she could be judgemental.
She went to church services regularly, but never considered it more than a simple conduit of faith. Her faith was not in her religion, but in her god.
Since knowing them and receiving that firm correction, I have been able to understand the occasional character I write who is of a faith - religion is a dangerous and contentious word. Faith is clearer, more pure and enduring.
Try Pam as a woman of faith who was raised Baptist.
Pam has married outside her religion, so is much more a woman of faith than religion. She has opened herself up and embraced the fact that her love is of another religion.
Overhearing a child telling of hearing voices could be disturbing to her, but she would have a hope that this was something very special. Without trying to scare Ruth, she would probably probe a bit.
Pam probably would offer to pray with Ruth to seek the answer. Her faith is deep - an ever moving river which keeps her strong despite all of her struggles. She might question and would certainly hope that Ruth was experiencing something benign. She will be worried about Ruth, her survival and the effect these voices might be having on such a child.
That's a good point, thanks.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@Cyn one thing you might consider is giving Pam a small bracelet - WWJD. She might touch it when thinking of difficult situations. The what would Jesus do jewelry is rather popular.
– Rasdashan
6 hours ago
But not WWLJD...
– Graham
5 hours ago
1
Very good point about marrying outside her religion - by itself that marks Pam as an extremely abnormal Southern Baptist Christian. @Cyn Are you aware that most evangelican Christians are against marrying non-Christians? Falling in love with her husband would have rocked her faith at the time, and she sadly is likely to have faced ostracism from some people in the Southern Baptist community. This would all deeply shape Pam's character and outlook on life.
– curiousdannii
1 hour ago
@curiousdannii Yes, I am aware that intermarriage back in 1980 (and even today) is an issue for many. Both that they are different races and different religions.
– Cyn
53 mins ago
add a comment |
Growing up in Israel, I am surrounded by Jews. Interacting with Christian acquaintances, and reading literature written by religious Christians, there are a few things I noticed - things that stood out to me as not being what is to me "the norm". (This is not an exhaustive study. Those are broad generalisations based on relatively limited personal experience.)
Faith is understood differently by Jews and Christians. That is, being a "good Christian" is different from being a "good Jew" not only in the technical rules one follows (Kashrut etc.) but in how one thinks of the whole thing.
Consider Tevye the Dairyman, especially the way he is presented in Fiddler on the Roof. He is in constant dialogue with God: "Would it spoil some vast eternal plan, if I were a wealthy man?" He is not a "bad Jew" for asking questions. In fact, we admire Abraham and Moses for arguing with God, for taking a moral stand.
We argue with God, we also argue about how we should follow God's commandments. The Gemara is all discussions and arguments, and of course it doesn't stop there. Our belief tends to the logical rather than the mystical. Consider how the Rambam explains why rules make sense, and how they make sense. We always ask why. We have a cultural respect for knowledge, for study, and because of that - for science. Rambam wrote at length about it, at the same time as Christian monasteries were not at all keen on the idea.
For Christians, as I understand it, questioning God is not a good way to behave. One is supposed to meekly accept, bow, obey, "have faith". Look at The Lord of the Rings, a profoundly Christian work: compare Aragorn (good) to Boromir (bad). Boromir doesn't stop questioning Gandalf's decisions - he uses his own head, he wants explanations, he wants to have it logically proven to him that their course is the right one. Aragorn, on the other hand, questions nothing and trusts Gandalf.
'But do not you know the word, Gandalf?' asked Boromir in surprise.
'No!' said the wizard.
The others looked dismayed; only Aragorn, who knew Gandalf well, remained silent and unmoved.
'Then what was the use of bringing us to this accursed spot?' cried Boromir (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 2, chapter 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
(This is one of multiple examples that form a pattern.)
Another important element: Judaism is very understanding and accepting of humans being humans. We are not expected to be saints - we are expected to make mistakes. It is understood. We do not seek absolute perfection, in fact we treat it with suspicion - it just can't be. In Christianity, the whole thing with confession etc. - the philosophy blames each and every human for each and every mistake. They've sinned, they're bad, they're undeserving of heaven...
Which brings us to the different attitude to this life and the next. Christian theology is very focused on Heaven and Hell, and avoiding the latter. This life is a "corridor" on the way to the next, and you must work very hard to end up in the right place. For Jews, all the focus is on this life. The afterlife is barely touched on, and there are so many varied opinions on it in the various sources, that consensus appears to be "when we get there, we'll find out". Hell is rather a foreign concept to us.
The thing about those core philosophies is, you can reject religion entirely, and yet your understanding of what being religious means would still be coloured by that religion you rejected. Or, one might think of oneself as "bad Christian" or "bad Jew", and those would be reflections of their perception of "good Christian/Jew". Whether your Christian character is religious, or not at all, she would still have this understanding.
If Pam suspects God is involved in what Ruth is experiencing, I would imagine her reaction would turn to fear and awe rather than to curiosity, and she might be more passive - accepting the experience rather than trying to figure out what God is trying to say. At least, that's my understanding of it all.
1
I appreciate your insights but I think you're falling into the same trap that I did (and my spouse): we're viewing Christianity with the lens of Judaism. To a degree, that's a good thing. I mean, we're a minority culture (okay, not in Israel, but in the world) and it's refreshing to get a non-mainstream POV. But my goal is to be true to Pam and the cultures she represents. She isn't a passive person and, while the broad strokes you use may be more or less true, I don't think most religious Christians would agree they describe them.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
2
Dear @Galastel you misunderstand Christianity. First, though trusting and obeying God is very important to us we are free to question too - we do read of Abraham, Moses, the psalms and the prophets after all. While we do seek absolute perfection it is as a free gift from God, despite the mistakes we make in our lives - we don't live our lives anxiously trying to achieve it. We do believe that what comes after is greater than our earthly lives but we trust God with regards to that. If I believed God was speaking to someone my response would be hope, excitement, curiosity.
– Ben
5 hours ago
2
@Ben if you feel like doing it, I'd love to see an answer you write.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
@Cyn right now I can't, as it is late. I might consider it tomorrow if the mood takes me, but no promises - as this is fun, not work, for me. However I am from a very different background from your 'Pam', not even the same nationality, so I'm not sure how useful my answer would be.
– Ben
5 hours ago
1
The point you are missing is that to get a character voice you need to understand how the character sees themselves, not how somebody of other religions does. Otherwise it will look "wrong" or "fake". I actually had to reinterpret what you were saying to get your point, for example. To illustrate, by reversing your post, you'd get a statement about Judaism being typified by constant disbelief and doubt of God, lack of interest in improving themselves and nihilism. Which I hope you agree is nonsense. On a positive note this might the same issue Cyn has, so yours might be very useful answer.
– Ville Niemi
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Every social group has its own dialect: that's called a sociolect. As dialects, it is hard to pick a sociolect for an outsider. Think how many writers handle teenager language in a horrible way.
There are two main ways to improve your understanding and fluency in a sociolect:
Read, read, and read litterature by "native" speaker of the sociolect. Or watch movies they make. Better, if possible, spend time with Christian people.
Have a Christian proofread your text, in the same way that movie makers use scientists to validate the scientific part of their work. Be sure that he understood the ideas you want to convey in that scene, and be ready to accept their criticism. That's great that you already started this process by asking relatives, but you need more detailed feedback on what is "way off".
A remark to conclude: When learning a sociolect, learn also when people use it and when they don't. Most people speak different dialects: their geographic dialects, their social dialects, the technological dialects of their workplace, their sport, their online community,... Christian people are not in "Christian mode" all day long or they become caricatures. I found Eugene from The Walking Dead extremely upsetting as he never breaks from his "scientist" role and speaks in casual conversation like no real-life scientist would speak. This either means that Eugene is "special" (is he doing this to look smart and keep his position in the community?) or that the writers don't understand anything about the scientific community.
New contributor
1
Thanks for your answer. I've done the things you suggest but what's missing is talking to writers who understand the culture I'm trying to portray. So I'm hoping for some specific insights.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Christians believe in the devil
Hell is as central to the Christian mythos as Heaven. Maybe "central" is not the right term, they co-exist as a sort of carrot and stick – arguably for the same purpose, to keep one on the straight and narrow road.
In Baptist specifically, the baptism is a life-changing ritual. You are "saved" or you aren't. There is no grey. You can also get re-baptized.
It is a religion designed for illiterate people. This is not an insult, there is a reason Southern Baptist played well where it did. There is no group reading. Participation is singing familiar hymns. Sermons are emotional and charismatic. Group empathy is re-enforced by songs and prayer which is led by a central "preacher" or "pastor". The communal part is saying "Amen" together at the end.
The preacher's sermon is structured like a "motivational speech", so natural language, humorous anecdotes, typically not very deep into scripture or biblical lore. It is extremely patriarchal, women have soft power so there is often status devotion towards the central charismatic figure (usually the preacher).
God is extremely abstract. Being protestant there are no official depictions of Christ – except there are, everywhere, Christ at all ages: baby to resurrection, just not up on the alter. Christ is a perfect ideal, and there is no critical separation between philosopher and magician. It is not a cerebral religion, it is feelings.
What Would Pam Do?
I think you have a wide range of options for how Pam might react, however – and this is speaking from experience – Southern Baptists grow up learning about, and understanding the motivations of "The Devil" (this is the name I grew up with in Texas, attending a Southern Baptist church). The Devil is just as likely to start speaking directly to a person – especially un-saved people (which is everyone outside the Baptist faith, including Methodists and Jews and Catholics) – The Devil may be even more likely to speak to these people than an abstract God.
However, she is just as likely to assume her daughter's friend is having a schizophrenic episode, probably depending on her family experience with mental illness. Consider her background, and whether her family had access to medical care, or worked in hospital care, social services, household aide, etc, where they would have encountered people needing care. Her concerns might be religious, but she also might ask a few loaded questions about medication. She could hold both ideas as "true", a religious voice does not exclude a mental health issue.
As a "good" Southern Baptist her reaction would be empathetic, nurturing, and non-judgemental. She would be looking to render care (probably food if she suspects schizophrenia), and she might set aside critical details about the voices, assuming her faith will protect herself, and she should always try to help any one in need, unconditionally. That seems like an extremely good character, but that would be the ideal.
What I would not expect from Pam, would be that she would have any functional knowledge of the Biblical era, or be able to quote from the bible at length. She would not have a strong knowledge of any Old Testament stories, but she might know many stories from the New Testament, but from hearing the sermons not from studying the scriptures.
2
A couple notes: 1) Ruth is Pam's niece. 2) It's Ruth's cousin (and later the cousin's brother) who worry about Ruth's mental health, so it's covered. 3) Pam has a college degree, is a big reader, and isn't the type not to ask questions, though I hear you on the religion being okay with people who only interact with the surface meanings. Thanks.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
1
@Cyn you have very specific characterisation in mind: she's not the one who questions mental health, she's not the one who doesn't ask questions either. Maybe you need to reconsider some of this, if you want to retain Pam's religion? Not necessarily, but maybe? If they seem not to mesh together well?
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Well I have specific things in mind because I know the characters and I've already written the scene. It's just not gelling right and I need to figure out why. I may indeed need to do more substantial changes than tweaking the dialogue. That's why I'm reading every answer and comment carefully. I appreciate your input.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Sounds like an interesting premise. I’d probably like that story for my Jewish family; it sounds like you acknowledge some realities of Jewish life in America that a lot of fiction is ambivalent about.
First, I’d like to highlight Arcanist Lupus’ suggestion to read “authentic Christian voices.” Blogs and social media are good too, and might give you a more conversational voice than a book. The closer to the character’s background, the better.
Pam is also a character influenced by multiple perspectives. You don’t say how much Baptist doctrine she personally believes, or if she converted, or she got her husband to, or if it’s an interfaith marriage, or if they’re irreligious but value their different cultural backgrounds. She’s an educated person, and might think of a psychiatric explanation. (If she knows the subject, she probably decides that schizophrenia is not likely at Ruth’s age.) She’d have seen the same pop culture as other Americans her age.
Although it’s easy to find examples online of Evangelical Christians who think that voices in people’s heads come from the Devil, that might paint the character in an unsympathetic light, which I don’t think is your intent. She doesn’t sound like the kind of Christian who believes that.
She did, though, grow up in a culture which is more likely to look for family and faith to deal with issues like this, and less likely to seek professional help. The National Alliance on Mental Illness attributes this to “distrust” of the mental-health profession because of its past history of overdiagnosing African-Americans with mental illness, and the fact that “In the African American community, family, community and spiritual beliefs tend to be great sources of strength and support.” This is followed by several howevers, however, including that many believe “that a mental health condition is a personal weakness or some sort of punishment from God,” and “Be aware that sometimes faith communities can be a source of distress and stigma if they are misinformed about mental health or do not know how to support families dealing with these conditions.”
Even if Pam is a sympathetic and knowledgeable character, and none of those caveats apply to her, her cultural background still might make her less likely to tell anyone else that her niece is hearing voices and more likely to think that a spiritual approach is an appropriate way for Ruth to find strength and get through it. You don’t say where the plot is going to go from there, but there’s a good chance that works for your story.
Thanks for addressing the issues head on. Only a few days pass between this scene and when the kids time travel (and lose contact with the adults). The cousins agree to let Ruth plan her boat outing and worry about what they'll do after Ruth's ideas of time travel fail. Of course they don't fail... I don't see any of the adults deciding Ruth needs immediate intervention (she doesn't tell anyone else though). Most adults would take a wait and see position for something that just pops up like this. Also, this is a book for kids so I'm happy with some smoothing over of these concerns.
– Cyn
34 mins ago
Time travel? Who’d have guessed? Anyway, yeah, wait-and-see is a good approach for the adults to take here. Kids shouldn’t feel ashamed to talk about problems like this with their families.
– Davislor
14 mins ago
add a comment |
First of all, why do you want an accurate voice in the first place? Fiction is fiction. It is not supposed to be real. If you are writing to a group of Jewish readers, then they wouldn't care if Pam's opinions are accurate or not; and they probably couldn't tell if Pam's opinions are true. If Pam's opinions make sense in the plot of the story, then that's all that matters. Accuracy is really not that important.
Now, when is accuracy important? Accuracy is important, when you want to include actual Christian readers in your audience. Actual Christian readers will look at the work, with their opinions and worldview, and if they cannot empathize with Pam, then Pam feels like a fake character. This is not good for story.
Suppose you want to include Christian readers in your audience. In that case, you should get their beliefs accurate. Otherwise, your Christian readers may give you negative reviews for portraying Christianity in a bad light or for misrepresenting Christianity.
How do you write a believable Christian voice for Pam?
You may take other people's advice, as mentioned by other posters here, but you may also take another approach.
Google "How do I become a Baptist Christian?" or "How do I become a Christian? Baptist."
Read Christianity for Dummies.
Believe in Jesus... or pretend to believe in Jesus.
Read Baptist Christian interpretations of scripture.
Read Baptist Christian apologetics.
Absorb as much of the worldview as you can.
Imagine that you are a Baptist Christian. Write a diary entry. Then, take Pam's scenario. Write her diary entry.
Give your work to a Black Baptist Christian reader for critique.
If all else fails, co-author with a Black Baptist Christian.
add a comment |
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Read authentic Christian voices
Find works written by religious Christians on religious subjects, and read them. These can either be non-fiction works, or stories with religious themes. Ideally, you'll read both. Try to find a variety of voices, and consider how the authors' other demographics (and their specific denomination) will affect their voices as well. (Works about non-religious matters by religious authors will also be useful, but the unique qualities of their voice may be harder to separate.)
When it comes time to create the character's voice, remember that they are more than just their religious identity - they need more to their voice than just the elements that you've identified as Christian.
Practice by writing from the character's POV, ideally in first person
The best way to fully master a character's voice is to dive into their head and tell the story from their point of view. Don't worry about the fact that this work won't make it into the final book, write it anyways. You can either write the scenes of your story that this character is a part of, or different scenes that are important to the character but unrelated to the story that you are telling, or even just a day in their life.
Keep writing until you feel like you understand their voice, and then return to writing your main story from it's regular POV, and you will likely find that when it comes time to add this character's voice in third person, it will come to you much easier, and stay distinct from the other voices.
In addition, diving into the character's head will probably deepen your understanding of the character and expand their personality, so that's a side benefit.
Thanks. I feel like I have a good handle on Pam's character aside from this bit. I have friends who are charismatic/evangelical Christians (I understand the split from doctrinal but get hung up on the specific label differences). I agree with reading works and I have, both fiction and nonfiction. The latter is mostly Biblical commentaries as I've been researching that extensively for the book and they often come up when I'm searching. I'm having problems translating this all into dialogue for this scene though.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
4
Also, for speech patterns in particular and in the US (don't know about elsewhere): Sunday morning TV; there's usually something on one of those local channels you usually skip past because they never have anything you actually want to watch.
– Monica Cellio♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Read authentic Christian voices
Find works written by religious Christians on religious subjects, and read them. These can either be non-fiction works, or stories with religious themes. Ideally, you'll read both. Try to find a variety of voices, and consider how the authors' other demographics (and their specific denomination) will affect their voices as well. (Works about non-religious matters by religious authors will also be useful, but the unique qualities of their voice may be harder to separate.)
When it comes time to create the character's voice, remember that they are more than just their religious identity - they need more to their voice than just the elements that you've identified as Christian.
Practice by writing from the character's POV, ideally in first person
The best way to fully master a character's voice is to dive into their head and tell the story from their point of view. Don't worry about the fact that this work won't make it into the final book, write it anyways. You can either write the scenes of your story that this character is a part of, or different scenes that are important to the character but unrelated to the story that you are telling, or even just a day in their life.
Keep writing until you feel like you understand their voice, and then return to writing your main story from it's regular POV, and you will likely find that when it comes time to add this character's voice in third person, it will come to you much easier, and stay distinct from the other voices.
In addition, diving into the character's head will probably deepen your understanding of the character and expand their personality, so that's a side benefit.
Thanks. I feel like I have a good handle on Pam's character aside from this bit. I have friends who are charismatic/evangelical Christians (I understand the split from doctrinal but get hung up on the specific label differences). I agree with reading works and I have, both fiction and nonfiction. The latter is mostly Biblical commentaries as I've been researching that extensively for the book and they often come up when I'm searching. I'm having problems translating this all into dialogue for this scene though.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
4
Also, for speech patterns in particular and in the US (don't know about elsewhere): Sunday morning TV; there's usually something on one of those local channels you usually skip past because they never have anything you actually want to watch.
– Monica Cellio♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Read authentic Christian voices
Find works written by religious Christians on religious subjects, and read them. These can either be non-fiction works, or stories with religious themes. Ideally, you'll read both. Try to find a variety of voices, and consider how the authors' other demographics (and their specific denomination) will affect their voices as well. (Works about non-religious matters by religious authors will also be useful, but the unique qualities of their voice may be harder to separate.)
When it comes time to create the character's voice, remember that they are more than just their religious identity - they need more to their voice than just the elements that you've identified as Christian.
Practice by writing from the character's POV, ideally in first person
The best way to fully master a character's voice is to dive into their head and tell the story from their point of view. Don't worry about the fact that this work won't make it into the final book, write it anyways. You can either write the scenes of your story that this character is a part of, or different scenes that are important to the character but unrelated to the story that you are telling, or even just a day in their life.
Keep writing until you feel like you understand their voice, and then return to writing your main story from it's regular POV, and you will likely find that when it comes time to add this character's voice in third person, it will come to you much easier, and stay distinct from the other voices.
In addition, diving into the character's head will probably deepen your understanding of the character and expand their personality, so that's a side benefit.
Read authentic Christian voices
Find works written by religious Christians on religious subjects, and read them. These can either be non-fiction works, or stories with religious themes. Ideally, you'll read both. Try to find a variety of voices, and consider how the authors' other demographics (and their specific denomination) will affect their voices as well. (Works about non-religious matters by religious authors will also be useful, but the unique qualities of their voice may be harder to separate.)
When it comes time to create the character's voice, remember that they are more than just their religious identity - they need more to their voice than just the elements that you've identified as Christian.
Practice by writing from the character's POV, ideally in first person
The best way to fully master a character's voice is to dive into their head and tell the story from their point of view. Don't worry about the fact that this work won't make it into the final book, write it anyways. You can either write the scenes of your story that this character is a part of, or different scenes that are important to the character but unrelated to the story that you are telling, or even just a day in their life.
Keep writing until you feel like you understand their voice, and then return to writing your main story from it's regular POV, and you will likely find that when it comes time to add this character's voice in third person, it will come to you much easier, and stay distinct from the other voices.
In addition, diving into the character's head will probably deepen your understanding of the character and expand their personality, so that's a side benefit.
answered 10 hours ago
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
6,7081028
6,7081028
Thanks. I feel like I have a good handle on Pam's character aside from this bit. I have friends who are charismatic/evangelical Christians (I understand the split from doctrinal but get hung up on the specific label differences). I agree with reading works and I have, both fiction and nonfiction. The latter is mostly Biblical commentaries as I've been researching that extensively for the book and they often come up when I'm searching. I'm having problems translating this all into dialogue for this scene though.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
4
Also, for speech patterns in particular and in the US (don't know about elsewhere): Sunday morning TV; there's usually something on one of those local channels you usually skip past because they never have anything you actually want to watch.
– Monica Cellio♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Thanks. I feel like I have a good handle on Pam's character aside from this bit. I have friends who are charismatic/evangelical Christians (I understand the split from doctrinal but get hung up on the specific label differences). I agree with reading works and I have, both fiction and nonfiction. The latter is mostly Biblical commentaries as I've been researching that extensively for the book and they often come up when I'm searching. I'm having problems translating this all into dialogue for this scene though.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
4
Also, for speech patterns in particular and in the US (don't know about elsewhere): Sunday morning TV; there's usually something on one of those local channels you usually skip past because they never have anything you actually want to watch.
– Monica Cellio♦
8 hours ago
Thanks. I feel like I have a good handle on Pam's character aside from this bit. I have friends who are charismatic/evangelical Christians (I understand the split from doctrinal but get hung up on the specific label differences). I agree with reading works and I have, both fiction and nonfiction. The latter is mostly Biblical commentaries as I've been researching that extensively for the book and they often come up when I'm searching. I'm having problems translating this all into dialogue for this scene though.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
Thanks. I feel like I have a good handle on Pam's character aside from this bit. I have friends who are charismatic/evangelical Christians (I understand the split from doctrinal but get hung up on the specific label differences). I agree with reading works and I have, both fiction and nonfiction. The latter is mostly Biblical commentaries as I've been researching that extensively for the book and they often come up when I'm searching. I'm having problems translating this all into dialogue for this scene though.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
4
4
Also, for speech patterns in particular and in the US (don't know about elsewhere): Sunday morning TV; there's usually something on one of those local channels you usually skip past because they never have anything you actually want to watch.
– Monica Cellio♦
8 hours ago
Also, for speech patterns in particular and in the US (don't know about elsewhere): Sunday morning TV; there's usually something on one of those local channels you usually skip past because they never have anything you actually want to watch.
– Monica Cellio♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Pam might also consider that some supernatural forces other than God are involved. Basically, four possibilities spring to mind:
- This is the legitimate voice of God speaking
- This is some other supernatural force, which might be heavenly angelic, or supernaturally demonic
- This might be a biological issue, caused by some insanity, brain tumor, or other problem. (In other words, Ruth might be honest, thinking what she is saying, even if such a voice is not actually happening anywhere outside of her head.)
- Ruth might be lying
The first one-and-a-half of those sound very, very good. The second two-and-a-half of those sound very, very bad. Perhaps your audience is innately skeptical of Pam just embracing Ruth's claims without having any sense of fear of the latter possibilities. Any of those problems (spiritual, biological, or moral) are quite undesirable.
If Pam is a woman who is full of faith, she might be perfectly willing to believe those first (more positive) possibilities. However, using wisdom, she may want to approach Ruth's claims with significant caution until Pam is more comfortable with what she is dealing with. A common approach would be to seek God's insight, especially involving prayer, and preferably through inviting Ruth to pray with her. (Remember, Christians view their God as being the same as the God of Orthodox Judaism. So Ruth might or might not agree enough to be comfortable with Pam's invitation, but from Pam's Christian perspective, such a prayer may not seem inappropriate, at least if Ruth is comfortable enough to accept the invitation, and so Pam may feel quite comfortable to make such an offer.)
I'm discounting a 5th possibility:
- magic
From a common Christian biblical perspective, sorcery and even evil miracles are mentioned in the bible, but churches often just describe such effects as the result of the second bullet point mentioned above. So, while your literary work might (eventually) identify that as actual reality, that's not particularly a very "Christian" perspective (at least, not in modernized Western civilization) for Pam to be naturally inclined to start thinking along those lines first.
add a comment |
Pam might also consider that some supernatural forces other than God are involved. Basically, four possibilities spring to mind:
- This is the legitimate voice of God speaking
- This is some other supernatural force, which might be heavenly angelic, or supernaturally demonic
- This might be a biological issue, caused by some insanity, brain tumor, or other problem. (In other words, Ruth might be honest, thinking what she is saying, even if such a voice is not actually happening anywhere outside of her head.)
- Ruth might be lying
The first one-and-a-half of those sound very, very good. The second two-and-a-half of those sound very, very bad. Perhaps your audience is innately skeptical of Pam just embracing Ruth's claims without having any sense of fear of the latter possibilities. Any of those problems (spiritual, biological, or moral) are quite undesirable.
If Pam is a woman who is full of faith, she might be perfectly willing to believe those first (more positive) possibilities. However, using wisdom, she may want to approach Ruth's claims with significant caution until Pam is more comfortable with what she is dealing with. A common approach would be to seek God's insight, especially involving prayer, and preferably through inviting Ruth to pray with her. (Remember, Christians view their God as being the same as the God of Orthodox Judaism. So Ruth might or might not agree enough to be comfortable with Pam's invitation, but from Pam's Christian perspective, such a prayer may not seem inappropriate, at least if Ruth is comfortable enough to accept the invitation, and so Pam may feel quite comfortable to make such an offer.)
I'm discounting a 5th possibility:
- magic
From a common Christian biblical perspective, sorcery and even evil miracles are mentioned in the bible, but churches often just describe such effects as the result of the second bullet point mentioned above. So, while your literary work might (eventually) identify that as actual reality, that's not particularly a very "Christian" perspective (at least, not in modernized Western civilization) for Pam to be naturally inclined to start thinking along those lines first.
add a comment |
Pam might also consider that some supernatural forces other than God are involved. Basically, four possibilities spring to mind:
- This is the legitimate voice of God speaking
- This is some other supernatural force, which might be heavenly angelic, or supernaturally demonic
- This might be a biological issue, caused by some insanity, brain tumor, or other problem. (In other words, Ruth might be honest, thinking what she is saying, even if such a voice is not actually happening anywhere outside of her head.)
- Ruth might be lying
The first one-and-a-half of those sound very, very good. The second two-and-a-half of those sound very, very bad. Perhaps your audience is innately skeptical of Pam just embracing Ruth's claims without having any sense of fear of the latter possibilities. Any of those problems (spiritual, biological, or moral) are quite undesirable.
If Pam is a woman who is full of faith, she might be perfectly willing to believe those first (more positive) possibilities. However, using wisdom, she may want to approach Ruth's claims with significant caution until Pam is more comfortable with what she is dealing with. A common approach would be to seek God's insight, especially involving prayer, and preferably through inviting Ruth to pray with her. (Remember, Christians view their God as being the same as the God of Orthodox Judaism. So Ruth might or might not agree enough to be comfortable with Pam's invitation, but from Pam's Christian perspective, such a prayer may not seem inappropriate, at least if Ruth is comfortable enough to accept the invitation, and so Pam may feel quite comfortable to make such an offer.)
I'm discounting a 5th possibility:
- magic
From a common Christian biblical perspective, sorcery and even evil miracles are mentioned in the bible, but churches often just describe such effects as the result of the second bullet point mentioned above. So, while your literary work might (eventually) identify that as actual reality, that's not particularly a very "Christian" perspective (at least, not in modernized Western civilization) for Pam to be naturally inclined to start thinking along those lines first.
Pam might also consider that some supernatural forces other than God are involved. Basically, four possibilities spring to mind:
- This is the legitimate voice of God speaking
- This is some other supernatural force, which might be heavenly angelic, or supernaturally demonic
- This might be a biological issue, caused by some insanity, brain tumor, or other problem. (In other words, Ruth might be honest, thinking what she is saying, even if such a voice is not actually happening anywhere outside of her head.)
- Ruth might be lying
The first one-and-a-half of those sound very, very good. The second two-and-a-half of those sound very, very bad. Perhaps your audience is innately skeptical of Pam just embracing Ruth's claims without having any sense of fear of the latter possibilities. Any of those problems (spiritual, biological, or moral) are quite undesirable.
If Pam is a woman who is full of faith, she might be perfectly willing to believe those first (more positive) possibilities. However, using wisdom, she may want to approach Ruth's claims with significant caution until Pam is more comfortable with what she is dealing with. A common approach would be to seek God's insight, especially involving prayer, and preferably through inviting Ruth to pray with her. (Remember, Christians view their God as being the same as the God of Orthodox Judaism. So Ruth might or might not agree enough to be comfortable with Pam's invitation, but from Pam's Christian perspective, such a prayer may not seem inappropriate, at least if Ruth is comfortable enough to accept the invitation, and so Pam may feel quite comfortable to make such an offer.)
I'm discounting a 5th possibility:
- magic
From a common Christian biblical perspective, sorcery and even evil miracles are mentioned in the bible, but churches often just describe such effects as the result of the second bullet point mentioned above. So, while your literary work might (eventually) identify that as actual reality, that's not particularly a very "Christian" perspective (at least, not in modernized Western civilization) for Pam to be naturally inclined to start thinking along those lines first.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
TOOGAMTOOGAM
40724
40724
add a comment |
add a comment |
Perhaps the crux of the problem is you are thinking of Pam as a Baptist.
While I was in the hospital, I befriended a former missionary who had spent twenty five years in China. I made the mistake of referring to him and his wife as religious. She let it pass once, but on the second time she told me she was not religious - she and her husband were people of FAITH. Her emphasis, not mine.
She went on to explain that ‘religious’ was restricting and narrow, making it seem like she could be judgemental.
She went to church services regularly, but never considered it more than a simple conduit of faith. Her faith was not in her religion, but in her god.
Since knowing them and receiving that firm correction, I have been able to understand the occasional character I write who is of a faith - religion is a dangerous and contentious word. Faith is clearer, more pure and enduring.
Try Pam as a woman of faith who was raised Baptist.
Pam has married outside her religion, so is much more a woman of faith than religion. She has opened herself up and embraced the fact that her love is of another religion.
Overhearing a child telling of hearing voices could be disturbing to her, but she would have a hope that this was something very special. Without trying to scare Ruth, she would probably probe a bit.
Pam probably would offer to pray with Ruth to seek the answer. Her faith is deep - an ever moving river which keeps her strong despite all of her struggles. She might question and would certainly hope that Ruth was experiencing something benign. She will be worried about Ruth, her survival and the effect these voices might be having on such a child.
That's a good point, thanks.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@Cyn one thing you might consider is giving Pam a small bracelet - WWJD. She might touch it when thinking of difficult situations. The what would Jesus do jewelry is rather popular.
– Rasdashan
6 hours ago
But not WWLJD...
– Graham
5 hours ago
1
Very good point about marrying outside her religion - by itself that marks Pam as an extremely abnormal Southern Baptist Christian. @Cyn Are you aware that most evangelican Christians are against marrying non-Christians? Falling in love with her husband would have rocked her faith at the time, and she sadly is likely to have faced ostracism from some people in the Southern Baptist community. This would all deeply shape Pam's character and outlook on life.
– curiousdannii
1 hour ago
@curiousdannii Yes, I am aware that intermarriage back in 1980 (and even today) is an issue for many. Both that they are different races and different religions.
– Cyn
53 mins ago
add a comment |
Perhaps the crux of the problem is you are thinking of Pam as a Baptist.
While I was in the hospital, I befriended a former missionary who had spent twenty five years in China. I made the mistake of referring to him and his wife as religious. She let it pass once, but on the second time she told me she was not religious - she and her husband were people of FAITH. Her emphasis, not mine.
She went on to explain that ‘religious’ was restricting and narrow, making it seem like she could be judgemental.
She went to church services regularly, but never considered it more than a simple conduit of faith. Her faith was not in her religion, but in her god.
Since knowing them and receiving that firm correction, I have been able to understand the occasional character I write who is of a faith - religion is a dangerous and contentious word. Faith is clearer, more pure and enduring.
Try Pam as a woman of faith who was raised Baptist.
Pam has married outside her religion, so is much more a woman of faith than religion. She has opened herself up and embraced the fact that her love is of another religion.
Overhearing a child telling of hearing voices could be disturbing to her, but she would have a hope that this was something very special. Without trying to scare Ruth, she would probably probe a bit.
Pam probably would offer to pray with Ruth to seek the answer. Her faith is deep - an ever moving river which keeps her strong despite all of her struggles. She might question and would certainly hope that Ruth was experiencing something benign. She will be worried about Ruth, her survival and the effect these voices might be having on such a child.
That's a good point, thanks.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@Cyn one thing you might consider is giving Pam a small bracelet - WWJD. She might touch it when thinking of difficult situations. The what would Jesus do jewelry is rather popular.
– Rasdashan
6 hours ago
But not WWLJD...
– Graham
5 hours ago
1
Very good point about marrying outside her religion - by itself that marks Pam as an extremely abnormal Southern Baptist Christian. @Cyn Are you aware that most evangelican Christians are against marrying non-Christians? Falling in love with her husband would have rocked her faith at the time, and she sadly is likely to have faced ostracism from some people in the Southern Baptist community. This would all deeply shape Pam's character and outlook on life.
– curiousdannii
1 hour ago
@curiousdannii Yes, I am aware that intermarriage back in 1980 (and even today) is an issue for many. Both that they are different races and different religions.
– Cyn
53 mins ago
add a comment |
Perhaps the crux of the problem is you are thinking of Pam as a Baptist.
While I was in the hospital, I befriended a former missionary who had spent twenty five years in China. I made the mistake of referring to him and his wife as religious. She let it pass once, but on the second time she told me she was not religious - she and her husband were people of FAITH. Her emphasis, not mine.
She went on to explain that ‘religious’ was restricting and narrow, making it seem like she could be judgemental.
She went to church services regularly, but never considered it more than a simple conduit of faith. Her faith was not in her religion, but in her god.
Since knowing them and receiving that firm correction, I have been able to understand the occasional character I write who is of a faith - religion is a dangerous and contentious word. Faith is clearer, more pure and enduring.
Try Pam as a woman of faith who was raised Baptist.
Pam has married outside her religion, so is much more a woman of faith than religion. She has opened herself up and embraced the fact that her love is of another religion.
Overhearing a child telling of hearing voices could be disturbing to her, but she would have a hope that this was something very special. Without trying to scare Ruth, she would probably probe a bit.
Pam probably would offer to pray with Ruth to seek the answer. Her faith is deep - an ever moving river which keeps her strong despite all of her struggles. She might question and would certainly hope that Ruth was experiencing something benign. She will be worried about Ruth, her survival and the effect these voices might be having on such a child.
Perhaps the crux of the problem is you are thinking of Pam as a Baptist.
While I was in the hospital, I befriended a former missionary who had spent twenty five years in China. I made the mistake of referring to him and his wife as religious. She let it pass once, but on the second time she told me she was not religious - she and her husband were people of FAITH. Her emphasis, not mine.
She went on to explain that ‘religious’ was restricting and narrow, making it seem like she could be judgemental.
She went to church services regularly, but never considered it more than a simple conduit of faith. Her faith was not in her religion, but in her god.
Since knowing them and receiving that firm correction, I have been able to understand the occasional character I write who is of a faith - religion is a dangerous and contentious word. Faith is clearer, more pure and enduring.
Try Pam as a woman of faith who was raised Baptist.
Pam has married outside her religion, so is much more a woman of faith than religion. She has opened herself up and embraced the fact that her love is of another religion.
Overhearing a child telling of hearing voices could be disturbing to her, but she would have a hope that this was something very special. Without trying to scare Ruth, she would probably probe a bit.
Pam probably would offer to pray with Ruth to seek the answer. Her faith is deep - an ever moving river which keeps her strong despite all of her struggles. She might question and would certainly hope that Ruth was experiencing something benign. She will be worried about Ruth, her survival and the effect these voices might be having on such a child.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
RasdashanRasdashan
7,5241048
7,5241048
That's a good point, thanks.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@Cyn one thing you might consider is giving Pam a small bracelet - WWJD. She might touch it when thinking of difficult situations. The what would Jesus do jewelry is rather popular.
– Rasdashan
6 hours ago
But not WWLJD...
– Graham
5 hours ago
1
Very good point about marrying outside her religion - by itself that marks Pam as an extremely abnormal Southern Baptist Christian. @Cyn Are you aware that most evangelican Christians are against marrying non-Christians? Falling in love with her husband would have rocked her faith at the time, and she sadly is likely to have faced ostracism from some people in the Southern Baptist community. This would all deeply shape Pam's character and outlook on life.
– curiousdannii
1 hour ago
@curiousdannii Yes, I am aware that intermarriage back in 1980 (and even today) is an issue for many. Both that they are different races and different religions.
– Cyn
53 mins ago
add a comment |
That's a good point, thanks.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@Cyn one thing you might consider is giving Pam a small bracelet - WWJD. She might touch it when thinking of difficult situations. The what would Jesus do jewelry is rather popular.
– Rasdashan
6 hours ago
But not WWLJD...
– Graham
5 hours ago
1
Very good point about marrying outside her religion - by itself that marks Pam as an extremely abnormal Southern Baptist Christian. @Cyn Are you aware that most evangelican Christians are against marrying non-Christians? Falling in love with her husband would have rocked her faith at the time, and she sadly is likely to have faced ostracism from some people in the Southern Baptist community. This would all deeply shape Pam's character and outlook on life.
– curiousdannii
1 hour ago
@curiousdannii Yes, I am aware that intermarriage back in 1980 (and even today) is an issue for many. Both that they are different races and different religions.
– Cyn
53 mins ago
That's a good point, thanks.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
That's a good point, thanks.
– Cyn
8 hours ago
@Cyn one thing you might consider is giving Pam a small bracelet - WWJD. She might touch it when thinking of difficult situations. The what would Jesus do jewelry is rather popular.
– Rasdashan
6 hours ago
@Cyn one thing you might consider is giving Pam a small bracelet - WWJD. She might touch it when thinking of difficult situations. The what would Jesus do jewelry is rather popular.
– Rasdashan
6 hours ago
But not WWLJD...
– Graham
5 hours ago
But not WWLJD...
– Graham
5 hours ago
1
1
Very good point about marrying outside her religion - by itself that marks Pam as an extremely abnormal Southern Baptist Christian. @Cyn Are you aware that most evangelican Christians are against marrying non-Christians? Falling in love with her husband would have rocked her faith at the time, and she sadly is likely to have faced ostracism from some people in the Southern Baptist community. This would all deeply shape Pam's character and outlook on life.
– curiousdannii
1 hour ago
Very good point about marrying outside her religion - by itself that marks Pam as an extremely abnormal Southern Baptist Christian. @Cyn Are you aware that most evangelican Christians are against marrying non-Christians? Falling in love with her husband would have rocked her faith at the time, and she sadly is likely to have faced ostracism from some people in the Southern Baptist community. This would all deeply shape Pam's character and outlook on life.
– curiousdannii
1 hour ago
@curiousdannii Yes, I am aware that intermarriage back in 1980 (and even today) is an issue for many. Both that they are different races and different religions.
– Cyn
53 mins ago
@curiousdannii Yes, I am aware that intermarriage back in 1980 (and even today) is an issue for many. Both that they are different races and different religions.
– Cyn
53 mins ago
add a comment |
Growing up in Israel, I am surrounded by Jews. Interacting with Christian acquaintances, and reading literature written by religious Christians, there are a few things I noticed - things that stood out to me as not being what is to me "the norm". (This is not an exhaustive study. Those are broad generalisations based on relatively limited personal experience.)
Faith is understood differently by Jews and Christians. That is, being a "good Christian" is different from being a "good Jew" not only in the technical rules one follows (Kashrut etc.) but in how one thinks of the whole thing.
Consider Tevye the Dairyman, especially the way he is presented in Fiddler on the Roof. He is in constant dialogue with God: "Would it spoil some vast eternal plan, if I were a wealthy man?" He is not a "bad Jew" for asking questions. In fact, we admire Abraham and Moses for arguing with God, for taking a moral stand.
We argue with God, we also argue about how we should follow God's commandments. The Gemara is all discussions and arguments, and of course it doesn't stop there. Our belief tends to the logical rather than the mystical. Consider how the Rambam explains why rules make sense, and how they make sense. We always ask why. We have a cultural respect for knowledge, for study, and because of that - for science. Rambam wrote at length about it, at the same time as Christian monasteries were not at all keen on the idea.
For Christians, as I understand it, questioning God is not a good way to behave. One is supposed to meekly accept, bow, obey, "have faith". Look at The Lord of the Rings, a profoundly Christian work: compare Aragorn (good) to Boromir (bad). Boromir doesn't stop questioning Gandalf's decisions - he uses his own head, he wants explanations, he wants to have it logically proven to him that their course is the right one. Aragorn, on the other hand, questions nothing and trusts Gandalf.
'But do not you know the word, Gandalf?' asked Boromir in surprise.
'No!' said the wizard.
The others looked dismayed; only Aragorn, who knew Gandalf well, remained silent and unmoved.
'Then what was the use of bringing us to this accursed spot?' cried Boromir (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 2, chapter 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
(This is one of multiple examples that form a pattern.)
Another important element: Judaism is very understanding and accepting of humans being humans. We are not expected to be saints - we are expected to make mistakes. It is understood. We do not seek absolute perfection, in fact we treat it with suspicion - it just can't be. In Christianity, the whole thing with confession etc. - the philosophy blames each and every human for each and every mistake. They've sinned, they're bad, they're undeserving of heaven...
Which brings us to the different attitude to this life and the next. Christian theology is very focused on Heaven and Hell, and avoiding the latter. This life is a "corridor" on the way to the next, and you must work very hard to end up in the right place. For Jews, all the focus is on this life. The afterlife is barely touched on, and there are so many varied opinions on it in the various sources, that consensus appears to be "when we get there, we'll find out". Hell is rather a foreign concept to us.
The thing about those core philosophies is, you can reject religion entirely, and yet your understanding of what being religious means would still be coloured by that religion you rejected. Or, one might think of oneself as "bad Christian" or "bad Jew", and those would be reflections of their perception of "good Christian/Jew". Whether your Christian character is religious, or not at all, she would still have this understanding.
If Pam suspects God is involved in what Ruth is experiencing, I would imagine her reaction would turn to fear and awe rather than to curiosity, and she might be more passive - accepting the experience rather than trying to figure out what God is trying to say. At least, that's my understanding of it all.
1
I appreciate your insights but I think you're falling into the same trap that I did (and my spouse): we're viewing Christianity with the lens of Judaism. To a degree, that's a good thing. I mean, we're a minority culture (okay, not in Israel, but in the world) and it's refreshing to get a non-mainstream POV. But my goal is to be true to Pam and the cultures she represents. She isn't a passive person and, while the broad strokes you use may be more or less true, I don't think most religious Christians would agree they describe them.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
2
Dear @Galastel you misunderstand Christianity. First, though trusting and obeying God is very important to us we are free to question too - we do read of Abraham, Moses, the psalms and the prophets after all. While we do seek absolute perfection it is as a free gift from God, despite the mistakes we make in our lives - we don't live our lives anxiously trying to achieve it. We do believe that what comes after is greater than our earthly lives but we trust God with regards to that. If I believed God was speaking to someone my response would be hope, excitement, curiosity.
– Ben
5 hours ago
2
@Ben if you feel like doing it, I'd love to see an answer you write.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
@Cyn right now I can't, as it is late. I might consider it tomorrow if the mood takes me, but no promises - as this is fun, not work, for me. However I am from a very different background from your 'Pam', not even the same nationality, so I'm not sure how useful my answer would be.
– Ben
5 hours ago
1
The point you are missing is that to get a character voice you need to understand how the character sees themselves, not how somebody of other religions does. Otherwise it will look "wrong" or "fake". I actually had to reinterpret what you were saying to get your point, for example. To illustrate, by reversing your post, you'd get a statement about Judaism being typified by constant disbelief and doubt of God, lack of interest in improving themselves and nihilism. Which I hope you agree is nonsense. On a positive note this might the same issue Cyn has, so yours might be very useful answer.
– Ville Niemi
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Growing up in Israel, I am surrounded by Jews. Interacting with Christian acquaintances, and reading literature written by religious Christians, there are a few things I noticed - things that stood out to me as not being what is to me "the norm". (This is not an exhaustive study. Those are broad generalisations based on relatively limited personal experience.)
Faith is understood differently by Jews and Christians. That is, being a "good Christian" is different from being a "good Jew" not only in the technical rules one follows (Kashrut etc.) but in how one thinks of the whole thing.
Consider Tevye the Dairyman, especially the way he is presented in Fiddler on the Roof. He is in constant dialogue with God: "Would it spoil some vast eternal plan, if I were a wealthy man?" He is not a "bad Jew" for asking questions. In fact, we admire Abraham and Moses for arguing with God, for taking a moral stand.
We argue with God, we also argue about how we should follow God's commandments. The Gemara is all discussions and arguments, and of course it doesn't stop there. Our belief tends to the logical rather than the mystical. Consider how the Rambam explains why rules make sense, and how they make sense. We always ask why. We have a cultural respect for knowledge, for study, and because of that - for science. Rambam wrote at length about it, at the same time as Christian monasteries were not at all keen on the idea.
For Christians, as I understand it, questioning God is not a good way to behave. One is supposed to meekly accept, bow, obey, "have faith". Look at The Lord of the Rings, a profoundly Christian work: compare Aragorn (good) to Boromir (bad). Boromir doesn't stop questioning Gandalf's decisions - he uses his own head, he wants explanations, he wants to have it logically proven to him that their course is the right one. Aragorn, on the other hand, questions nothing and trusts Gandalf.
'But do not you know the word, Gandalf?' asked Boromir in surprise.
'No!' said the wizard.
The others looked dismayed; only Aragorn, who knew Gandalf well, remained silent and unmoved.
'Then what was the use of bringing us to this accursed spot?' cried Boromir (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 2, chapter 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
(This is one of multiple examples that form a pattern.)
Another important element: Judaism is very understanding and accepting of humans being humans. We are not expected to be saints - we are expected to make mistakes. It is understood. We do not seek absolute perfection, in fact we treat it with suspicion - it just can't be. In Christianity, the whole thing with confession etc. - the philosophy blames each and every human for each and every mistake. They've sinned, they're bad, they're undeserving of heaven...
Which brings us to the different attitude to this life and the next. Christian theology is very focused on Heaven and Hell, and avoiding the latter. This life is a "corridor" on the way to the next, and you must work very hard to end up in the right place. For Jews, all the focus is on this life. The afterlife is barely touched on, and there are so many varied opinions on it in the various sources, that consensus appears to be "when we get there, we'll find out". Hell is rather a foreign concept to us.
The thing about those core philosophies is, you can reject religion entirely, and yet your understanding of what being religious means would still be coloured by that religion you rejected. Or, one might think of oneself as "bad Christian" or "bad Jew", and those would be reflections of their perception of "good Christian/Jew". Whether your Christian character is religious, or not at all, she would still have this understanding.
If Pam suspects God is involved in what Ruth is experiencing, I would imagine her reaction would turn to fear and awe rather than to curiosity, and she might be more passive - accepting the experience rather than trying to figure out what God is trying to say. At least, that's my understanding of it all.
1
I appreciate your insights but I think you're falling into the same trap that I did (and my spouse): we're viewing Christianity with the lens of Judaism. To a degree, that's a good thing. I mean, we're a minority culture (okay, not in Israel, but in the world) and it's refreshing to get a non-mainstream POV. But my goal is to be true to Pam and the cultures she represents. She isn't a passive person and, while the broad strokes you use may be more or less true, I don't think most religious Christians would agree they describe them.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
2
Dear @Galastel you misunderstand Christianity. First, though trusting and obeying God is very important to us we are free to question too - we do read of Abraham, Moses, the psalms and the prophets after all. While we do seek absolute perfection it is as a free gift from God, despite the mistakes we make in our lives - we don't live our lives anxiously trying to achieve it. We do believe that what comes after is greater than our earthly lives but we trust God with regards to that. If I believed God was speaking to someone my response would be hope, excitement, curiosity.
– Ben
5 hours ago
2
@Ben if you feel like doing it, I'd love to see an answer you write.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
@Cyn right now I can't, as it is late. I might consider it tomorrow if the mood takes me, but no promises - as this is fun, not work, for me. However I am from a very different background from your 'Pam', not even the same nationality, so I'm not sure how useful my answer would be.
– Ben
5 hours ago
1
The point you are missing is that to get a character voice you need to understand how the character sees themselves, not how somebody of other religions does. Otherwise it will look "wrong" or "fake". I actually had to reinterpret what you were saying to get your point, for example. To illustrate, by reversing your post, you'd get a statement about Judaism being typified by constant disbelief and doubt of God, lack of interest in improving themselves and nihilism. Which I hope you agree is nonsense. On a positive note this might the same issue Cyn has, so yours might be very useful answer.
– Ville Niemi
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Growing up in Israel, I am surrounded by Jews. Interacting with Christian acquaintances, and reading literature written by religious Christians, there are a few things I noticed - things that stood out to me as not being what is to me "the norm". (This is not an exhaustive study. Those are broad generalisations based on relatively limited personal experience.)
Faith is understood differently by Jews and Christians. That is, being a "good Christian" is different from being a "good Jew" not only in the technical rules one follows (Kashrut etc.) but in how one thinks of the whole thing.
Consider Tevye the Dairyman, especially the way he is presented in Fiddler on the Roof. He is in constant dialogue with God: "Would it spoil some vast eternal plan, if I were a wealthy man?" He is not a "bad Jew" for asking questions. In fact, we admire Abraham and Moses for arguing with God, for taking a moral stand.
We argue with God, we also argue about how we should follow God's commandments. The Gemara is all discussions and arguments, and of course it doesn't stop there. Our belief tends to the logical rather than the mystical. Consider how the Rambam explains why rules make sense, and how they make sense. We always ask why. We have a cultural respect for knowledge, for study, and because of that - for science. Rambam wrote at length about it, at the same time as Christian monasteries were not at all keen on the idea.
For Christians, as I understand it, questioning God is not a good way to behave. One is supposed to meekly accept, bow, obey, "have faith". Look at The Lord of the Rings, a profoundly Christian work: compare Aragorn (good) to Boromir (bad). Boromir doesn't stop questioning Gandalf's decisions - he uses his own head, he wants explanations, he wants to have it logically proven to him that their course is the right one. Aragorn, on the other hand, questions nothing and trusts Gandalf.
'But do not you know the word, Gandalf?' asked Boromir in surprise.
'No!' said the wizard.
The others looked dismayed; only Aragorn, who knew Gandalf well, remained silent and unmoved.
'Then what was the use of bringing us to this accursed spot?' cried Boromir (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 2, chapter 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
(This is one of multiple examples that form a pattern.)
Another important element: Judaism is very understanding and accepting of humans being humans. We are not expected to be saints - we are expected to make mistakes. It is understood. We do not seek absolute perfection, in fact we treat it with suspicion - it just can't be. In Christianity, the whole thing with confession etc. - the philosophy blames each and every human for each and every mistake. They've sinned, they're bad, they're undeserving of heaven...
Which brings us to the different attitude to this life and the next. Christian theology is very focused on Heaven and Hell, and avoiding the latter. This life is a "corridor" on the way to the next, and you must work very hard to end up in the right place. For Jews, all the focus is on this life. The afterlife is barely touched on, and there are so many varied opinions on it in the various sources, that consensus appears to be "when we get there, we'll find out". Hell is rather a foreign concept to us.
The thing about those core philosophies is, you can reject religion entirely, and yet your understanding of what being religious means would still be coloured by that religion you rejected. Or, one might think of oneself as "bad Christian" or "bad Jew", and those would be reflections of their perception of "good Christian/Jew". Whether your Christian character is religious, or not at all, she would still have this understanding.
If Pam suspects God is involved in what Ruth is experiencing, I would imagine her reaction would turn to fear and awe rather than to curiosity, and she might be more passive - accepting the experience rather than trying to figure out what God is trying to say. At least, that's my understanding of it all.
Growing up in Israel, I am surrounded by Jews. Interacting with Christian acquaintances, and reading literature written by religious Christians, there are a few things I noticed - things that stood out to me as not being what is to me "the norm". (This is not an exhaustive study. Those are broad generalisations based on relatively limited personal experience.)
Faith is understood differently by Jews and Christians. That is, being a "good Christian" is different from being a "good Jew" not only in the technical rules one follows (Kashrut etc.) but in how one thinks of the whole thing.
Consider Tevye the Dairyman, especially the way he is presented in Fiddler on the Roof. He is in constant dialogue with God: "Would it spoil some vast eternal plan, if I were a wealthy man?" He is not a "bad Jew" for asking questions. In fact, we admire Abraham and Moses for arguing with God, for taking a moral stand.
We argue with God, we also argue about how we should follow God's commandments. The Gemara is all discussions and arguments, and of course it doesn't stop there. Our belief tends to the logical rather than the mystical. Consider how the Rambam explains why rules make sense, and how they make sense. We always ask why. We have a cultural respect for knowledge, for study, and because of that - for science. Rambam wrote at length about it, at the same time as Christian monasteries were not at all keen on the idea.
For Christians, as I understand it, questioning God is not a good way to behave. One is supposed to meekly accept, bow, obey, "have faith". Look at The Lord of the Rings, a profoundly Christian work: compare Aragorn (good) to Boromir (bad). Boromir doesn't stop questioning Gandalf's decisions - he uses his own head, he wants explanations, he wants to have it logically proven to him that their course is the right one. Aragorn, on the other hand, questions nothing and trusts Gandalf.
'But do not you know the word, Gandalf?' asked Boromir in surprise.
'No!' said the wizard.
The others looked dismayed; only Aragorn, who knew Gandalf well, remained silent and unmoved.
'Then what was the use of bringing us to this accursed spot?' cried Boromir (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 2, chapter 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
(This is one of multiple examples that form a pattern.)
Another important element: Judaism is very understanding and accepting of humans being humans. We are not expected to be saints - we are expected to make mistakes. It is understood. We do not seek absolute perfection, in fact we treat it with suspicion - it just can't be. In Christianity, the whole thing with confession etc. - the philosophy blames each and every human for each and every mistake. They've sinned, they're bad, they're undeserving of heaven...
Which brings us to the different attitude to this life and the next. Christian theology is very focused on Heaven and Hell, and avoiding the latter. This life is a "corridor" on the way to the next, and you must work very hard to end up in the right place. For Jews, all the focus is on this life. The afterlife is barely touched on, and there are so many varied opinions on it in the various sources, that consensus appears to be "when we get there, we'll find out". Hell is rather a foreign concept to us.
The thing about those core philosophies is, you can reject religion entirely, and yet your understanding of what being religious means would still be coloured by that religion you rejected. Or, one might think of oneself as "bad Christian" or "bad Jew", and those would be reflections of their perception of "good Christian/Jew". Whether your Christian character is religious, or not at all, she would still have this understanding.
If Pam suspects God is involved in what Ruth is experiencing, I would imagine her reaction would turn to fear and awe rather than to curiosity, and she might be more passive - accepting the experience rather than trying to figure out what God is trying to say. At least, that's my understanding of it all.
answered 6 hours ago
GalastelGalastel
36.6k6109194
36.6k6109194
1
I appreciate your insights but I think you're falling into the same trap that I did (and my spouse): we're viewing Christianity with the lens of Judaism. To a degree, that's a good thing. I mean, we're a minority culture (okay, not in Israel, but in the world) and it's refreshing to get a non-mainstream POV. But my goal is to be true to Pam and the cultures she represents. She isn't a passive person and, while the broad strokes you use may be more or less true, I don't think most religious Christians would agree they describe them.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
2
Dear @Galastel you misunderstand Christianity. First, though trusting and obeying God is very important to us we are free to question too - we do read of Abraham, Moses, the psalms and the prophets after all. While we do seek absolute perfection it is as a free gift from God, despite the mistakes we make in our lives - we don't live our lives anxiously trying to achieve it. We do believe that what comes after is greater than our earthly lives but we trust God with regards to that. If I believed God was speaking to someone my response would be hope, excitement, curiosity.
– Ben
5 hours ago
2
@Ben if you feel like doing it, I'd love to see an answer you write.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
@Cyn right now I can't, as it is late. I might consider it tomorrow if the mood takes me, but no promises - as this is fun, not work, for me. However I am from a very different background from your 'Pam', not even the same nationality, so I'm not sure how useful my answer would be.
– Ben
5 hours ago
1
The point you are missing is that to get a character voice you need to understand how the character sees themselves, not how somebody of other religions does. Otherwise it will look "wrong" or "fake". I actually had to reinterpret what you were saying to get your point, for example. To illustrate, by reversing your post, you'd get a statement about Judaism being typified by constant disbelief and doubt of God, lack of interest in improving themselves and nihilism. Which I hope you agree is nonsense. On a positive note this might the same issue Cyn has, so yours might be very useful answer.
– Ville Niemi
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
I appreciate your insights but I think you're falling into the same trap that I did (and my spouse): we're viewing Christianity with the lens of Judaism. To a degree, that's a good thing. I mean, we're a minority culture (okay, not in Israel, but in the world) and it's refreshing to get a non-mainstream POV. But my goal is to be true to Pam and the cultures she represents. She isn't a passive person and, while the broad strokes you use may be more or less true, I don't think most religious Christians would agree they describe them.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
2
Dear @Galastel you misunderstand Christianity. First, though trusting and obeying God is very important to us we are free to question too - we do read of Abraham, Moses, the psalms and the prophets after all. While we do seek absolute perfection it is as a free gift from God, despite the mistakes we make in our lives - we don't live our lives anxiously trying to achieve it. We do believe that what comes after is greater than our earthly lives but we trust God with regards to that. If I believed God was speaking to someone my response would be hope, excitement, curiosity.
– Ben
5 hours ago
2
@Ben if you feel like doing it, I'd love to see an answer you write.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
@Cyn right now I can't, as it is late. I might consider it tomorrow if the mood takes me, but no promises - as this is fun, not work, for me. However I am from a very different background from your 'Pam', not even the same nationality, so I'm not sure how useful my answer would be.
– Ben
5 hours ago
1
The point you are missing is that to get a character voice you need to understand how the character sees themselves, not how somebody of other religions does. Otherwise it will look "wrong" or "fake". I actually had to reinterpret what you were saying to get your point, for example. To illustrate, by reversing your post, you'd get a statement about Judaism being typified by constant disbelief and doubt of God, lack of interest in improving themselves and nihilism. Which I hope you agree is nonsense. On a positive note this might the same issue Cyn has, so yours might be very useful answer.
– Ville Niemi
2 hours ago
1
1
I appreciate your insights but I think you're falling into the same trap that I did (and my spouse): we're viewing Christianity with the lens of Judaism. To a degree, that's a good thing. I mean, we're a minority culture (okay, not in Israel, but in the world) and it's refreshing to get a non-mainstream POV. But my goal is to be true to Pam and the cultures she represents. She isn't a passive person and, while the broad strokes you use may be more or less true, I don't think most religious Christians would agree they describe them.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
I appreciate your insights but I think you're falling into the same trap that I did (and my spouse): we're viewing Christianity with the lens of Judaism. To a degree, that's a good thing. I mean, we're a minority culture (okay, not in Israel, but in the world) and it's refreshing to get a non-mainstream POV. But my goal is to be true to Pam and the cultures she represents. She isn't a passive person and, while the broad strokes you use may be more or less true, I don't think most religious Christians would agree they describe them.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
2
2
Dear @Galastel you misunderstand Christianity. First, though trusting and obeying God is very important to us we are free to question too - we do read of Abraham, Moses, the psalms and the prophets after all. While we do seek absolute perfection it is as a free gift from God, despite the mistakes we make in our lives - we don't live our lives anxiously trying to achieve it. We do believe that what comes after is greater than our earthly lives but we trust God with regards to that. If I believed God was speaking to someone my response would be hope, excitement, curiosity.
– Ben
5 hours ago
Dear @Galastel you misunderstand Christianity. First, though trusting and obeying God is very important to us we are free to question too - we do read of Abraham, Moses, the psalms and the prophets after all. While we do seek absolute perfection it is as a free gift from God, despite the mistakes we make in our lives - we don't live our lives anxiously trying to achieve it. We do believe that what comes after is greater than our earthly lives but we trust God with regards to that. If I believed God was speaking to someone my response would be hope, excitement, curiosity.
– Ben
5 hours ago
2
2
@Ben if you feel like doing it, I'd love to see an answer you write.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
@Ben if you feel like doing it, I'd love to see an answer you write.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
@Cyn right now I can't, as it is late. I might consider it tomorrow if the mood takes me, but no promises - as this is fun, not work, for me. However I am from a very different background from your 'Pam', not even the same nationality, so I'm not sure how useful my answer would be.
– Ben
5 hours ago
@Cyn right now I can't, as it is late. I might consider it tomorrow if the mood takes me, but no promises - as this is fun, not work, for me. However I am from a very different background from your 'Pam', not even the same nationality, so I'm not sure how useful my answer would be.
– Ben
5 hours ago
1
1
The point you are missing is that to get a character voice you need to understand how the character sees themselves, not how somebody of other religions does. Otherwise it will look "wrong" or "fake". I actually had to reinterpret what you were saying to get your point, for example. To illustrate, by reversing your post, you'd get a statement about Judaism being typified by constant disbelief and doubt of God, lack of interest in improving themselves and nihilism. Which I hope you agree is nonsense. On a positive note this might the same issue Cyn has, so yours might be very useful answer.
– Ville Niemi
2 hours ago
The point you are missing is that to get a character voice you need to understand how the character sees themselves, not how somebody of other religions does. Otherwise it will look "wrong" or "fake". I actually had to reinterpret what you were saying to get your point, for example. To illustrate, by reversing your post, you'd get a statement about Judaism being typified by constant disbelief and doubt of God, lack of interest in improving themselves and nihilism. Which I hope you agree is nonsense. On a positive note this might the same issue Cyn has, so yours might be very useful answer.
– Ville Niemi
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Every social group has its own dialect: that's called a sociolect. As dialects, it is hard to pick a sociolect for an outsider. Think how many writers handle teenager language in a horrible way.
There are two main ways to improve your understanding and fluency in a sociolect:
Read, read, and read litterature by "native" speaker of the sociolect. Or watch movies they make. Better, if possible, spend time with Christian people.
Have a Christian proofread your text, in the same way that movie makers use scientists to validate the scientific part of their work. Be sure that he understood the ideas you want to convey in that scene, and be ready to accept their criticism. That's great that you already started this process by asking relatives, but you need more detailed feedback on what is "way off".
A remark to conclude: When learning a sociolect, learn also when people use it and when they don't. Most people speak different dialects: their geographic dialects, their social dialects, the technological dialects of their workplace, their sport, their online community,... Christian people are not in "Christian mode" all day long or they become caricatures. I found Eugene from The Walking Dead extremely upsetting as he never breaks from his "scientist" role and speaks in casual conversation like no real-life scientist would speak. This either means that Eugene is "special" (is he doing this to look smart and keep his position in the community?) or that the writers don't understand anything about the scientific community.
New contributor
1
Thanks for your answer. I've done the things you suggest but what's missing is talking to writers who understand the culture I'm trying to portray. So I'm hoping for some specific insights.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Every social group has its own dialect: that's called a sociolect. As dialects, it is hard to pick a sociolect for an outsider. Think how many writers handle teenager language in a horrible way.
There are two main ways to improve your understanding and fluency in a sociolect:
Read, read, and read litterature by "native" speaker of the sociolect. Or watch movies they make. Better, if possible, spend time with Christian people.
Have a Christian proofread your text, in the same way that movie makers use scientists to validate the scientific part of their work. Be sure that he understood the ideas you want to convey in that scene, and be ready to accept their criticism. That's great that you already started this process by asking relatives, but you need more detailed feedback on what is "way off".
A remark to conclude: When learning a sociolect, learn also when people use it and when they don't. Most people speak different dialects: their geographic dialects, their social dialects, the technological dialects of their workplace, their sport, their online community,... Christian people are not in "Christian mode" all day long or they become caricatures. I found Eugene from The Walking Dead extremely upsetting as he never breaks from his "scientist" role and speaks in casual conversation like no real-life scientist would speak. This either means that Eugene is "special" (is he doing this to look smart and keep his position in the community?) or that the writers don't understand anything about the scientific community.
New contributor
1
Thanks for your answer. I've done the things you suggest but what's missing is talking to writers who understand the culture I'm trying to portray. So I'm hoping for some specific insights.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Every social group has its own dialect: that's called a sociolect. As dialects, it is hard to pick a sociolect for an outsider. Think how many writers handle teenager language in a horrible way.
There are two main ways to improve your understanding and fluency in a sociolect:
Read, read, and read litterature by "native" speaker of the sociolect. Or watch movies they make. Better, if possible, spend time with Christian people.
Have a Christian proofread your text, in the same way that movie makers use scientists to validate the scientific part of their work. Be sure that he understood the ideas you want to convey in that scene, and be ready to accept their criticism. That's great that you already started this process by asking relatives, but you need more detailed feedback on what is "way off".
A remark to conclude: When learning a sociolect, learn also when people use it and when they don't. Most people speak different dialects: their geographic dialects, their social dialects, the technological dialects of their workplace, their sport, their online community,... Christian people are not in "Christian mode" all day long or they become caricatures. I found Eugene from The Walking Dead extremely upsetting as he never breaks from his "scientist" role and speaks in casual conversation like no real-life scientist would speak. This either means that Eugene is "special" (is he doing this to look smart and keep his position in the community?) or that the writers don't understand anything about the scientific community.
New contributor
Every social group has its own dialect: that's called a sociolect. As dialects, it is hard to pick a sociolect for an outsider. Think how many writers handle teenager language in a horrible way.
There are two main ways to improve your understanding and fluency in a sociolect:
Read, read, and read litterature by "native" speaker of the sociolect. Or watch movies they make. Better, if possible, spend time with Christian people.
Have a Christian proofread your text, in the same way that movie makers use scientists to validate the scientific part of their work. Be sure that he understood the ideas you want to convey in that scene, and be ready to accept their criticism. That's great that you already started this process by asking relatives, but you need more detailed feedback on what is "way off".
A remark to conclude: When learning a sociolect, learn also when people use it and when they don't. Most people speak different dialects: their geographic dialects, their social dialects, the technological dialects of their workplace, their sport, their online community,... Christian people are not in "Christian mode" all day long or they become caricatures. I found Eugene from The Walking Dead extremely upsetting as he never breaks from his "scientist" role and speaks in casual conversation like no real-life scientist would speak. This either means that Eugene is "special" (is he doing this to look smart and keep his position in the community?) or that the writers don't understand anything about the scientific community.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 4 hours ago
TaladrisTaladris
1413
1413
New contributor
New contributor
1
Thanks for your answer. I've done the things you suggest but what's missing is talking to writers who understand the culture I'm trying to portray. So I'm hoping for some specific insights.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Thanks for your answer. I've done the things you suggest but what's missing is talking to writers who understand the culture I'm trying to portray. So I'm hoping for some specific insights.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
1
1
Thanks for your answer. I've done the things you suggest but what's missing is talking to writers who understand the culture I'm trying to portray. So I'm hoping for some specific insights.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
Thanks for your answer. I've done the things you suggest but what's missing is talking to writers who understand the culture I'm trying to portray. So I'm hoping for some specific insights.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Christians believe in the devil
Hell is as central to the Christian mythos as Heaven. Maybe "central" is not the right term, they co-exist as a sort of carrot and stick – arguably for the same purpose, to keep one on the straight and narrow road.
In Baptist specifically, the baptism is a life-changing ritual. You are "saved" or you aren't. There is no grey. You can also get re-baptized.
It is a religion designed for illiterate people. This is not an insult, there is a reason Southern Baptist played well where it did. There is no group reading. Participation is singing familiar hymns. Sermons are emotional and charismatic. Group empathy is re-enforced by songs and prayer which is led by a central "preacher" or "pastor". The communal part is saying "Amen" together at the end.
The preacher's sermon is structured like a "motivational speech", so natural language, humorous anecdotes, typically not very deep into scripture or biblical lore. It is extremely patriarchal, women have soft power so there is often status devotion towards the central charismatic figure (usually the preacher).
God is extremely abstract. Being protestant there are no official depictions of Christ – except there are, everywhere, Christ at all ages: baby to resurrection, just not up on the alter. Christ is a perfect ideal, and there is no critical separation between philosopher and magician. It is not a cerebral religion, it is feelings.
What Would Pam Do?
I think you have a wide range of options for how Pam might react, however – and this is speaking from experience – Southern Baptists grow up learning about, and understanding the motivations of "The Devil" (this is the name I grew up with in Texas, attending a Southern Baptist church). The Devil is just as likely to start speaking directly to a person – especially un-saved people (which is everyone outside the Baptist faith, including Methodists and Jews and Catholics) – The Devil may be even more likely to speak to these people than an abstract God.
However, she is just as likely to assume her daughter's friend is having a schizophrenic episode, probably depending on her family experience with mental illness. Consider her background, and whether her family had access to medical care, or worked in hospital care, social services, household aide, etc, where they would have encountered people needing care. Her concerns might be religious, but she also might ask a few loaded questions about medication. She could hold both ideas as "true", a religious voice does not exclude a mental health issue.
As a "good" Southern Baptist her reaction would be empathetic, nurturing, and non-judgemental. She would be looking to render care (probably food if she suspects schizophrenia), and she might set aside critical details about the voices, assuming her faith will protect herself, and she should always try to help any one in need, unconditionally. That seems like an extremely good character, but that would be the ideal.
What I would not expect from Pam, would be that she would have any functional knowledge of the Biblical era, or be able to quote from the bible at length. She would not have a strong knowledge of any Old Testament stories, but she might know many stories from the New Testament, but from hearing the sermons not from studying the scriptures.
2
A couple notes: 1) Ruth is Pam's niece. 2) It's Ruth's cousin (and later the cousin's brother) who worry about Ruth's mental health, so it's covered. 3) Pam has a college degree, is a big reader, and isn't the type not to ask questions, though I hear you on the religion being okay with people who only interact with the surface meanings. Thanks.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
1
@Cyn you have very specific characterisation in mind: she's not the one who questions mental health, she's not the one who doesn't ask questions either. Maybe you need to reconsider some of this, if you want to retain Pam's religion? Not necessarily, but maybe? If they seem not to mesh together well?
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Well I have specific things in mind because I know the characters and I've already written the scene. It's just not gelling right and I need to figure out why. I may indeed need to do more substantial changes than tweaking the dialogue. That's why I'm reading every answer and comment carefully. I appreciate your input.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Christians believe in the devil
Hell is as central to the Christian mythos as Heaven. Maybe "central" is not the right term, they co-exist as a sort of carrot and stick – arguably for the same purpose, to keep one on the straight and narrow road.
In Baptist specifically, the baptism is a life-changing ritual. You are "saved" or you aren't. There is no grey. You can also get re-baptized.
It is a religion designed for illiterate people. This is not an insult, there is a reason Southern Baptist played well where it did. There is no group reading. Participation is singing familiar hymns. Sermons are emotional and charismatic. Group empathy is re-enforced by songs and prayer which is led by a central "preacher" or "pastor". The communal part is saying "Amen" together at the end.
The preacher's sermon is structured like a "motivational speech", so natural language, humorous anecdotes, typically not very deep into scripture or biblical lore. It is extremely patriarchal, women have soft power so there is often status devotion towards the central charismatic figure (usually the preacher).
God is extremely abstract. Being protestant there are no official depictions of Christ – except there are, everywhere, Christ at all ages: baby to resurrection, just not up on the alter. Christ is a perfect ideal, and there is no critical separation between philosopher and magician. It is not a cerebral religion, it is feelings.
What Would Pam Do?
I think you have a wide range of options for how Pam might react, however – and this is speaking from experience – Southern Baptists grow up learning about, and understanding the motivations of "The Devil" (this is the name I grew up with in Texas, attending a Southern Baptist church). The Devil is just as likely to start speaking directly to a person – especially un-saved people (which is everyone outside the Baptist faith, including Methodists and Jews and Catholics) – The Devil may be even more likely to speak to these people than an abstract God.
However, she is just as likely to assume her daughter's friend is having a schizophrenic episode, probably depending on her family experience with mental illness. Consider her background, and whether her family had access to medical care, or worked in hospital care, social services, household aide, etc, where they would have encountered people needing care. Her concerns might be religious, but she also might ask a few loaded questions about medication. She could hold both ideas as "true", a religious voice does not exclude a mental health issue.
As a "good" Southern Baptist her reaction would be empathetic, nurturing, and non-judgemental. She would be looking to render care (probably food if she suspects schizophrenia), and she might set aside critical details about the voices, assuming her faith will protect herself, and she should always try to help any one in need, unconditionally. That seems like an extremely good character, but that would be the ideal.
What I would not expect from Pam, would be that she would have any functional knowledge of the Biblical era, or be able to quote from the bible at length. She would not have a strong knowledge of any Old Testament stories, but she might know many stories from the New Testament, but from hearing the sermons not from studying the scriptures.
2
A couple notes: 1) Ruth is Pam's niece. 2) It's Ruth's cousin (and later the cousin's brother) who worry about Ruth's mental health, so it's covered. 3) Pam has a college degree, is a big reader, and isn't the type not to ask questions, though I hear you on the religion being okay with people who only interact with the surface meanings. Thanks.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
1
@Cyn you have very specific characterisation in mind: she's not the one who questions mental health, she's not the one who doesn't ask questions either. Maybe you need to reconsider some of this, if you want to retain Pam's religion? Not necessarily, but maybe? If they seem not to mesh together well?
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Well I have specific things in mind because I know the characters and I've already written the scene. It's just not gelling right and I need to figure out why. I may indeed need to do more substantial changes than tweaking the dialogue. That's why I'm reading every answer and comment carefully. I appreciate your input.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Christians believe in the devil
Hell is as central to the Christian mythos as Heaven. Maybe "central" is not the right term, they co-exist as a sort of carrot and stick – arguably for the same purpose, to keep one on the straight and narrow road.
In Baptist specifically, the baptism is a life-changing ritual. You are "saved" or you aren't. There is no grey. You can also get re-baptized.
It is a religion designed for illiterate people. This is not an insult, there is a reason Southern Baptist played well where it did. There is no group reading. Participation is singing familiar hymns. Sermons are emotional and charismatic. Group empathy is re-enforced by songs and prayer which is led by a central "preacher" or "pastor". The communal part is saying "Amen" together at the end.
The preacher's sermon is structured like a "motivational speech", so natural language, humorous anecdotes, typically not very deep into scripture or biblical lore. It is extremely patriarchal, women have soft power so there is often status devotion towards the central charismatic figure (usually the preacher).
God is extremely abstract. Being protestant there are no official depictions of Christ – except there are, everywhere, Christ at all ages: baby to resurrection, just not up on the alter. Christ is a perfect ideal, and there is no critical separation between philosopher and magician. It is not a cerebral religion, it is feelings.
What Would Pam Do?
I think you have a wide range of options for how Pam might react, however – and this is speaking from experience – Southern Baptists grow up learning about, and understanding the motivations of "The Devil" (this is the name I grew up with in Texas, attending a Southern Baptist church). The Devil is just as likely to start speaking directly to a person – especially un-saved people (which is everyone outside the Baptist faith, including Methodists and Jews and Catholics) – The Devil may be even more likely to speak to these people than an abstract God.
However, she is just as likely to assume her daughter's friend is having a schizophrenic episode, probably depending on her family experience with mental illness. Consider her background, and whether her family had access to medical care, or worked in hospital care, social services, household aide, etc, where they would have encountered people needing care. Her concerns might be religious, but she also might ask a few loaded questions about medication. She could hold both ideas as "true", a religious voice does not exclude a mental health issue.
As a "good" Southern Baptist her reaction would be empathetic, nurturing, and non-judgemental. She would be looking to render care (probably food if she suspects schizophrenia), and she might set aside critical details about the voices, assuming her faith will protect herself, and she should always try to help any one in need, unconditionally. That seems like an extremely good character, but that would be the ideal.
What I would not expect from Pam, would be that she would have any functional knowledge of the Biblical era, or be able to quote from the bible at length. She would not have a strong knowledge of any Old Testament stories, but she might know many stories from the New Testament, but from hearing the sermons not from studying the scriptures.
Christians believe in the devil
Hell is as central to the Christian mythos as Heaven. Maybe "central" is not the right term, they co-exist as a sort of carrot and stick – arguably for the same purpose, to keep one on the straight and narrow road.
In Baptist specifically, the baptism is a life-changing ritual. You are "saved" or you aren't. There is no grey. You can also get re-baptized.
It is a religion designed for illiterate people. This is not an insult, there is a reason Southern Baptist played well where it did. There is no group reading. Participation is singing familiar hymns. Sermons are emotional and charismatic. Group empathy is re-enforced by songs and prayer which is led by a central "preacher" or "pastor". The communal part is saying "Amen" together at the end.
The preacher's sermon is structured like a "motivational speech", so natural language, humorous anecdotes, typically not very deep into scripture or biblical lore. It is extremely patriarchal, women have soft power so there is often status devotion towards the central charismatic figure (usually the preacher).
God is extremely abstract. Being protestant there are no official depictions of Christ – except there are, everywhere, Christ at all ages: baby to resurrection, just not up on the alter. Christ is a perfect ideal, and there is no critical separation between philosopher and magician. It is not a cerebral religion, it is feelings.
What Would Pam Do?
I think you have a wide range of options for how Pam might react, however – and this is speaking from experience – Southern Baptists grow up learning about, and understanding the motivations of "The Devil" (this is the name I grew up with in Texas, attending a Southern Baptist church). The Devil is just as likely to start speaking directly to a person – especially un-saved people (which is everyone outside the Baptist faith, including Methodists and Jews and Catholics) – The Devil may be even more likely to speak to these people than an abstract God.
However, she is just as likely to assume her daughter's friend is having a schizophrenic episode, probably depending on her family experience with mental illness. Consider her background, and whether her family had access to medical care, or worked in hospital care, social services, household aide, etc, where they would have encountered people needing care. Her concerns might be religious, but she also might ask a few loaded questions about medication. She could hold both ideas as "true", a religious voice does not exclude a mental health issue.
As a "good" Southern Baptist her reaction would be empathetic, nurturing, and non-judgemental. She would be looking to render care (probably food if she suspects schizophrenia), and she might set aside critical details about the voices, assuming her faith will protect herself, and she should always try to help any one in need, unconditionally. That seems like an extremely good character, but that would be the ideal.
What I would not expect from Pam, would be that she would have any functional knowledge of the Biblical era, or be able to quote from the bible at length. She would not have a strong knowledge of any Old Testament stories, but she might know many stories from the New Testament, but from hearing the sermons not from studying the scriptures.
answered 5 hours ago
wetcircuitwetcircuit
13.1k22361
13.1k22361
2
A couple notes: 1) Ruth is Pam's niece. 2) It's Ruth's cousin (and later the cousin's brother) who worry about Ruth's mental health, so it's covered. 3) Pam has a college degree, is a big reader, and isn't the type not to ask questions, though I hear you on the religion being okay with people who only interact with the surface meanings. Thanks.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
1
@Cyn you have very specific characterisation in mind: she's not the one who questions mental health, she's not the one who doesn't ask questions either. Maybe you need to reconsider some of this, if you want to retain Pam's religion? Not necessarily, but maybe? If they seem not to mesh together well?
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Well I have specific things in mind because I know the characters and I've already written the scene. It's just not gelling right and I need to figure out why. I may indeed need to do more substantial changes than tweaking the dialogue. That's why I'm reading every answer and comment carefully. I appreciate your input.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2
A couple notes: 1) Ruth is Pam's niece. 2) It's Ruth's cousin (and later the cousin's brother) who worry about Ruth's mental health, so it's covered. 3) Pam has a college degree, is a big reader, and isn't the type not to ask questions, though I hear you on the religion being okay with people who only interact with the surface meanings. Thanks.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
1
@Cyn you have very specific characterisation in mind: she's not the one who questions mental health, she's not the one who doesn't ask questions either. Maybe you need to reconsider some of this, if you want to retain Pam's religion? Not necessarily, but maybe? If they seem not to mesh together well?
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Well I have specific things in mind because I know the characters and I've already written the scene. It's just not gelling right and I need to figure out why. I may indeed need to do more substantial changes than tweaking the dialogue. That's why I'm reading every answer and comment carefully. I appreciate your input.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
2
2
A couple notes: 1) Ruth is Pam's niece. 2) It's Ruth's cousin (and later the cousin's brother) who worry about Ruth's mental health, so it's covered. 3) Pam has a college degree, is a big reader, and isn't the type not to ask questions, though I hear you on the religion being okay with people who only interact with the surface meanings. Thanks.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
A couple notes: 1) Ruth is Pam's niece. 2) It's Ruth's cousin (and later the cousin's brother) who worry about Ruth's mental health, so it's covered. 3) Pam has a college degree, is a big reader, and isn't the type not to ask questions, though I hear you on the religion being okay with people who only interact with the surface meanings. Thanks.
– Cyn
5 hours ago
1
1
@Cyn you have very specific characterisation in mind: she's not the one who questions mental health, she's not the one who doesn't ask questions either. Maybe you need to reconsider some of this, if you want to retain Pam's religion? Not necessarily, but maybe? If they seem not to mesh together well?
– Galastel
5 hours ago
@Cyn you have very specific characterisation in mind: she's not the one who questions mental health, she's not the one who doesn't ask questions either. Maybe you need to reconsider some of this, if you want to retain Pam's religion? Not necessarily, but maybe? If they seem not to mesh together well?
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Well I have specific things in mind because I know the characters and I've already written the scene. It's just not gelling right and I need to figure out why. I may indeed need to do more substantial changes than tweaking the dialogue. That's why I'm reading every answer and comment carefully. I appreciate your input.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
Well I have specific things in mind because I know the characters and I've already written the scene. It's just not gelling right and I need to figure out why. I may indeed need to do more substantial changes than tweaking the dialogue. That's why I'm reading every answer and comment carefully. I appreciate your input.
– Cyn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Sounds like an interesting premise. I’d probably like that story for my Jewish family; it sounds like you acknowledge some realities of Jewish life in America that a lot of fiction is ambivalent about.
First, I’d like to highlight Arcanist Lupus’ suggestion to read “authentic Christian voices.” Blogs and social media are good too, and might give you a more conversational voice than a book. The closer to the character’s background, the better.
Pam is also a character influenced by multiple perspectives. You don’t say how much Baptist doctrine she personally believes, or if she converted, or she got her husband to, or if it’s an interfaith marriage, or if they’re irreligious but value their different cultural backgrounds. She’s an educated person, and might think of a psychiatric explanation. (If she knows the subject, she probably decides that schizophrenia is not likely at Ruth’s age.) She’d have seen the same pop culture as other Americans her age.
Although it’s easy to find examples online of Evangelical Christians who think that voices in people’s heads come from the Devil, that might paint the character in an unsympathetic light, which I don’t think is your intent. She doesn’t sound like the kind of Christian who believes that.
She did, though, grow up in a culture which is more likely to look for family and faith to deal with issues like this, and less likely to seek professional help. The National Alliance on Mental Illness attributes this to “distrust” of the mental-health profession because of its past history of overdiagnosing African-Americans with mental illness, and the fact that “In the African American community, family, community and spiritual beliefs tend to be great sources of strength and support.” This is followed by several howevers, however, including that many believe “that a mental health condition is a personal weakness or some sort of punishment from God,” and “Be aware that sometimes faith communities can be a source of distress and stigma if they are misinformed about mental health or do not know how to support families dealing with these conditions.”
Even if Pam is a sympathetic and knowledgeable character, and none of those caveats apply to her, her cultural background still might make her less likely to tell anyone else that her niece is hearing voices and more likely to think that a spiritual approach is an appropriate way for Ruth to find strength and get through it. You don’t say where the plot is going to go from there, but there’s a good chance that works for your story.
Thanks for addressing the issues head on. Only a few days pass between this scene and when the kids time travel (and lose contact with the adults). The cousins agree to let Ruth plan her boat outing and worry about what they'll do after Ruth's ideas of time travel fail. Of course they don't fail... I don't see any of the adults deciding Ruth needs immediate intervention (she doesn't tell anyone else though). Most adults would take a wait and see position for something that just pops up like this. Also, this is a book for kids so I'm happy with some smoothing over of these concerns.
– Cyn
34 mins ago
Time travel? Who’d have guessed? Anyway, yeah, wait-and-see is a good approach for the adults to take here. Kids shouldn’t feel ashamed to talk about problems like this with their families.
– Davislor
14 mins ago
add a comment |
Sounds like an interesting premise. I’d probably like that story for my Jewish family; it sounds like you acknowledge some realities of Jewish life in America that a lot of fiction is ambivalent about.
First, I’d like to highlight Arcanist Lupus’ suggestion to read “authentic Christian voices.” Blogs and social media are good too, and might give you a more conversational voice than a book. The closer to the character’s background, the better.
Pam is also a character influenced by multiple perspectives. You don’t say how much Baptist doctrine she personally believes, or if she converted, or she got her husband to, or if it’s an interfaith marriage, or if they’re irreligious but value their different cultural backgrounds. She’s an educated person, and might think of a psychiatric explanation. (If she knows the subject, she probably decides that schizophrenia is not likely at Ruth’s age.) She’d have seen the same pop culture as other Americans her age.
Although it’s easy to find examples online of Evangelical Christians who think that voices in people’s heads come from the Devil, that might paint the character in an unsympathetic light, which I don’t think is your intent. She doesn’t sound like the kind of Christian who believes that.
She did, though, grow up in a culture which is more likely to look for family and faith to deal with issues like this, and less likely to seek professional help. The National Alliance on Mental Illness attributes this to “distrust” of the mental-health profession because of its past history of overdiagnosing African-Americans with mental illness, and the fact that “In the African American community, family, community and spiritual beliefs tend to be great sources of strength and support.” This is followed by several howevers, however, including that many believe “that a mental health condition is a personal weakness or some sort of punishment from God,” and “Be aware that sometimes faith communities can be a source of distress and stigma if they are misinformed about mental health or do not know how to support families dealing with these conditions.”
Even if Pam is a sympathetic and knowledgeable character, and none of those caveats apply to her, her cultural background still might make her less likely to tell anyone else that her niece is hearing voices and more likely to think that a spiritual approach is an appropriate way for Ruth to find strength and get through it. You don’t say where the plot is going to go from there, but there’s a good chance that works for your story.
Thanks for addressing the issues head on. Only a few days pass between this scene and when the kids time travel (and lose contact with the adults). The cousins agree to let Ruth plan her boat outing and worry about what they'll do after Ruth's ideas of time travel fail. Of course they don't fail... I don't see any of the adults deciding Ruth needs immediate intervention (she doesn't tell anyone else though). Most adults would take a wait and see position for something that just pops up like this. Also, this is a book for kids so I'm happy with some smoothing over of these concerns.
– Cyn
34 mins ago
Time travel? Who’d have guessed? Anyway, yeah, wait-and-see is a good approach for the adults to take here. Kids shouldn’t feel ashamed to talk about problems like this with their families.
– Davislor
14 mins ago
add a comment |
Sounds like an interesting premise. I’d probably like that story for my Jewish family; it sounds like you acknowledge some realities of Jewish life in America that a lot of fiction is ambivalent about.
First, I’d like to highlight Arcanist Lupus’ suggestion to read “authentic Christian voices.” Blogs and social media are good too, and might give you a more conversational voice than a book. The closer to the character’s background, the better.
Pam is also a character influenced by multiple perspectives. You don’t say how much Baptist doctrine she personally believes, or if she converted, or she got her husband to, or if it’s an interfaith marriage, or if they’re irreligious but value their different cultural backgrounds. She’s an educated person, and might think of a psychiatric explanation. (If she knows the subject, she probably decides that schizophrenia is not likely at Ruth’s age.) She’d have seen the same pop culture as other Americans her age.
Although it’s easy to find examples online of Evangelical Christians who think that voices in people’s heads come from the Devil, that might paint the character in an unsympathetic light, which I don’t think is your intent. She doesn’t sound like the kind of Christian who believes that.
She did, though, grow up in a culture which is more likely to look for family and faith to deal with issues like this, and less likely to seek professional help. The National Alliance on Mental Illness attributes this to “distrust” of the mental-health profession because of its past history of overdiagnosing African-Americans with mental illness, and the fact that “In the African American community, family, community and spiritual beliefs tend to be great sources of strength and support.” This is followed by several howevers, however, including that many believe “that a mental health condition is a personal weakness or some sort of punishment from God,” and “Be aware that sometimes faith communities can be a source of distress and stigma if they are misinformed about mental health or do not know how to support families dealing with these conditions.”
Even if Pam is a sympathetic and knowledgeable character, and none of those caveats apply to her, her cultural background still might make her less likely to tell anyone else that her niece is hearing voices and more likely to think that a spiritual approach is an appropriate way for Ruth to find strength and get through it. You don’t say where the plot is going to go from there, but there’s a good chance that works for your story.
Sounds like an interesting premise. I’d probably like that story for my Jewish family; it sounds like you acknowledge some realities of Jewish life in America that a lot of fiction is ambivalent about.
First, I’d like to highlight Arcanist Lupus’ suggestion to read “authentic Christian voices.” Blogs and social media are good too, and might give you a more conversational voice than a book. The closer to the character’s background, the better.
Pam is also a character influenced by multiple perspectives. You don’t say how much Baptist doctrine she personally believes, or if she converted, or she got her husband to, or if it’s an interfaith marriage, or if they’re irreligious but value their different cultural backgrounds. She’s an educated person, and might think of a psychiatric explanation. (If she knows the subject, she probably decides that schizophrenia is not likely at Ruth’s age.) She’d have seen the same pop culture as other Americans her age.
Although it’s easy to find examples online of Evangelical Christians who think that voices in people’s heads come from the Devil, that might paint the character in an unsympathetic light, which I don’t think is your intent. She doesn’t sound like the kind of Christian who believes that.
She did, though, grow up in a culture which is more likely to look for family and faith to deal with issues like this, and less likely to seek professional help. The National Alliance on Mental Illness attributes this to “distrust” of the mental-health profession because of its past history of overdiagnosing African-Americans with mental illness, and the fact that “In the African American community, family, community and spiritual beliefs tend to be great sources of strength and support.” This is followed by several howevers, however, including that many believe “that a mental health condition is a personal weakness or some sort of punishment from God,” and “Be aware that sometimes faith communities can be a source of distress and stigma if they are misinformed about mental health or do not know how to support families dealing with these conditions.”
Even if Pam is a sympathetic and knowledgeable character, and none of those caveats apply to her, her cultural background still might make her less likely to tell anyone else that her niece is hearing voices and more likely to think that a spiritual approach is an appropriate way for Ruth to find strength and get through it. You don’t say where the plot is going to go from there, but there’s a good chance that works for your story.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
DavislorDavislor
44115
44115
Thanks for addressing the issues head on. Only a few days pass between this scene and when the kids time travel (and lose contact with the adults). The cousins agree to let Ruth plan her boat outing and worry about what they'll do after Ruth's ideas of time travel fail. Of course they don't fail... I don't see any of the adults deciding Ruth needs immediate intervention (she doesn't tell anyone else though). Most adults would take a wait and see position for something that just pops up like this. Also, this is a book for kids so I'm happy with some smoothing over of these concerns.
– Cyn
34 mins ago
Time travel? Who’d have guessed? Anyway, yeah, wait-and-see is a good approach for the adults to take here. Kids shouldn’t feel ashamed to talk about problems like this with their families.
– Davislor
14 mins ago
add a comment |
Thanks for addressing the issues head on. Only a few days pass between this scene and when the kids time travel (and lose contact with the adults). The cousins agree to let Ruth plan her boat outing and worry about what they'll do after Ruth's ideas of time travel fail. Of course they don't fail... I don't see any of the adults deciding Ruth needs immediate intervention (she doesn't tell anyone else though). Most adults would take a wait and see position for something that just pops up like this. Also, this is a book for kids so I'm happy with some smoothing over of these concerns.
– Cyn
34 mins ago
Time travel? Who’d have guessed? Anyway, yeah, wait-and-see is a good approach for the adults to take here. Kids shouldn’t feel ashamed to talk about problems like this with their families.
– Davislor
14 mins ago
Thanks for addressing the issues head on. Only a few days pass between this scene and when the kids time travel (and lose contact with the adults). The cousins agree to let Ruth plan her boat outing and worry about what they'll do after Ruth's ideas of time travel fail. Of course they don't fail... I don't see any of the adults deciding Ruth needs immediate intervention (she doesn't tell anyone else though). Most adults would take a wait and see position for something that just pops up like this. Also, this is a book for kids so I'm happy with some smoothing over of these concerns.
– Cyn
34 mins ago
Thanks for addressing the issues head on. Only a few days pass between this scene and when the kids time travel (and lose contact with the adults). The cousins agree to let Ruth plan her boat outing and worry about what they'll do after Ruth's ideas of time travel fail. Of course they don't fail... I don't see any of the adults deciding Ruth needs immediate intervention (she doesn't tell anyone else though). Most adults would take a wait and see position for something that just pops up like this. Also, this is a book for kids so I'm happy with some smoothing over of these concerns.
– Cyn
34 mins ago
Time travel? Who’d have guessed? Anyway, yeah, wait-and-see is a good approach for the adults to take here. Kids shouldn’t feel ashamed to talk about problems like this with their families.
– Davislor
14 mins ago
Time travel? Who’d have guessed? Anyway, yeah, wait-and-see is a good approach for the adults to take here. Kids shouldn’t feel ashamed to talk about problems like this with their families.
– Davislor
14 mins ago
add a comment |
First of all, why do you want an accurate voice in the first place? Fiction is fiction. It is not supposed to be real. If you are writing to a group of Jewish readers, then they wouldn't care if Pam's opinions are accurate or not; and they probably couldn't tell if Pam's opinions are true. If Pam's opinions make sense in the plot of the story, then that's all that matters. Accuracy is really not that important.
Now, when is accuracy important? Accuracy is important, when you want to include actual Christian readers in your audience. Actual Christian readers will look at the work, with their opinions and worldview, and if they cannot empathize with Pam, then Pam feels like a fake character. This is not good for story.
Suppose you want to include Christian readers in your audience. In that case, you should get their beliefs accurate. Otherwise, your Christian readers may give you negative reviews for portraying Christianity in a bad light or for misrepresenting Christianity.
How do you write a believable Christian voice for Pam?
You may take other people's advice, as mentioned by other posters here, but you may also take another approach.
Google "How do I become a Baptist Christian?" or "How do I become a Christian? Baptist."
Read Christianity for Dummies.
Believe in Jesus... or pretend to believe in Jesus.
Read Baptist Christian interpretations of scripture.
Read Baptist Christian apologetics.
Absorb as much of the worldview as you can.
Imagine that you are a Baptist Christian. Write a diary entry. Then, take Pam's scenario. Write her diary entry.
Give your work to a Black Baptist Christian reader for critique.
If all else fails, co-author with a Black Baptist Christian.
add a comment |
First of all, why do you want an accurate voice in the first place? Fiction is fiction. It is not supposed to be real. If you are writing to a group of Jewish readers, then they wouldn't care if Pam's opinions are accurate or not; and they probably couldn't tell if Pam's opinions are true. If Pam's opinions make sense in the plot of the story, then that's all that matters. Accuracy is really not that important.
Now, when is accuracy important? Accuracy is important, when you want to include actual Christian readers in your audience. Actual Christian readers will look at the work, with their opinions and worldview, and if they cannot empathize with Pam, then Pam feels like a fake character. This is not good for story.
Suppose you want to include Christian readers in your audience. In that case, you should get their beliefs accurate. Otherwise, your Christian readers may give you negative reviews for portraying Christianity in a bad light or for misrepresenting Christianity.
How do you write a believable Christian voice for Pam?
You may take other people's advice, as mentioned by other posters here, but you may also take another approach.
Google "How do I become a Baptist Christian?" or "How do I become a Christian? Baptist."
Read Christianity for Dummies.
Believe in Jesus... or pretend to believe in Jesus.
Read Baptist Christian interpretations of scripture.
Read Baptist Christian apologetics.
Absorb as much of the worldview as you can.
Imagine that you are a Baptist Christian. Write a diary entry. Then, take Pam's scenario. Write her diary entry.
Give your work to a Black Baptist Christian reader for critique.
If all else fails, co-author with a Black Baptist Christian.
add a comment |
First of all, why do you want an accurate voice in the first place? Fiction is fiction. It is not supposed to be real. If you are writing to a group of Jewish readers, then they wouldn't care if Pam's opinions are accurate or not; and they probably couldn't tell if Pam's opinions are true. If Pam's opinions make sense in the plot of the story, then that's all that matters. Accuracy is really not that important.
Now, when is accuracy important? Accuracy is important, when you want to include actual Christian readers in your audience. Actual Christian readers will look at the work, with their opinions and worldview, and if they cannot empathize with Pam, then Pam feels like a fake character. This is not good for story.
Suppose you want to include Christian readers in your audience. In that case, you should get their beliefs accurate. Otherwise, your Christian readers may give you negative reviews for portraying Christianity in a bad light or for misrepresenting Christianity.
How do you write a believable Christian voice for Pam?
You may take other people's advice, as mentioned by other posters here, but you may also take another approach.
Google "How do I become a Baptist Christian?" or "How do I become a Christian? Baptist."
Read Christianity for Dummies.
Believe in Jesus... or pretend to believe in Jesus.
Read Baptist Christian interpretations of scripture.
Read Baptist Christian apologetics.
Absorb as much of the worldview as you can.
Imagine that you are a Baptist Christian. Write a diary entry. Then, take Pam's scenario. Write her diary entry.
Give your work to a Black Baptist Christian reader for critique.
If all else fails, co-author with a Black Baptist Christian.
First of all, why do you want an accurate voice in the first place? Fiction is fiction. It is not supposed to be real. If you are writing to a group of Jewish readers, then they wouldn't care if Pam's opinions are accurate or not; and they probably couldn't tell if Pam's opinions are true. If Pam's opinions make sense in the plot of the story, then that's all that matters. Accuracy is really not that important.
Now, when is accuracy important? Accuracy is important, when you want to include actual Christian readers in your audience. Actual Christian readers will look at the work, with their opinions and worldview, and if they cannot empathize with Pam, then Pam feels like a fake character. This is not good for story.
Suppose you want to include Christian readers in your audience. In that case, you should get their beliefs accurate. Otherwise, your Christian readers may give you negative reviews for portraying Christianity in a bad light or for misrepresenting Christianity.
How do you write a believable Christian voice for Pam?
You may take other people's advice, as mentioned by other posters here, but you may also take another approach.
Google "How do I become a Baptist Christian?" or "How do I become a Christian? Baptist."
Read Christianity for Dummies.
Believe in Jesus... or pretend to believe in Jesus.
Read Baptist Christian interpretations of scripture.
Read Baptist Christian apologetics.
Absorb as much of the worldview as you can.
Imagine that you are a Baptist Christian. Write a diary entry. Then, take Pam's scenario. Write her diary entry.
Give your work to a Black Baptist Christian reader for critique.
If all else fails, co-author with a Black Baptist Christian.
answered 2 hours ago
Double UDouble U
1,749822
1,749822
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
What was the criticism: was the character "thinking like a Jew", "a caricature of a Christian", or just "off"?
– Galastel
10 hours ago
8
I think you may need to refine what you're asking a bit, because you've happened to pick somebody from one of the more flamboyant protestant denominations. Black Southern Baptists are very, very different from most Christians. I'm not giving an answer, because I could only give the answer from the perspective of a white boy agnostic raised in a Methodist church, who has spent a grand total of two hours in a black Southern Baptist church for funerals. That experience has only been enough to convince me I do not know enough to give an accurate answer.
– Ed Grimm
10 hours ago
6
Some American Christian sects have jargon that sounds like something between sales team motivational speak, and codewords. I found the concepts weren't difficult, but I wasn't able to imitate their vocabulary…. No idea if that's what your readers didn't hear, or they felt she didn't sound like her background should, or if her religious views were off. Since you don't say specificly I assume they didn't either…. The character would have different ideas depending on how "strict" her church is (Baptists in general tend to be more emotional/charismatic than scripture/doctrine).
– wetcircuit
9 hours ago
1
@Galastel "thinking like a Jew." And it's true. I live in a country where Christianity is mainstream, where things deemed "secular" are actually Christian-based, so of course I'm pretty familiar with Christian culture and organization. A lot more than my friends who grew up in countries without a strong Christian presence are. But there's a lot I don't know, mainly how Christians talk to each other (or to their non-Christian family members).
– Cyn
8 hours ago
1
@EdGrimm I would find other Christian perspectives helpful. Label it well of course. Methodists are more like Baptists than either is like Jews.
– Cyn
8 hours ago