Pronouncing Dictionary.com's W.O.D “vade mecum” in EnglishTraditional vs. classical pronunciation of Latin words in EnglishPronouncing acronymsPronouncing “A”: “ai” vs. “ah”Pronouncing “vis-à-vis”?Pronouncing th after r in Standard American English: /ɹð/Exercises for pronouncing the rPronouncing MethanePronouncing the word “getting”Pronouncing 'Going' in UK EnglishPronouncing 4.5 metersRecent change in pronouncing homage
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Pronouncing Dictionary.com's W.O.D “vade mecum” in English
Traditional vs. classical pronunciation of Latin words in EnglishPronouncing acronymsPronouncing “A”: “ai” vs. “ah”Pronouncing “vis-à-vis”?Pronouncing th after r in Standard American English: /ɹð/Exercises for pronouncing the rPronouncing MethanePronouncing the word “getting”Pronouncing 'Going' in UK EnglishPronouncing 4.5 metersRecent change in pronouncing homage
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The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,
[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]
It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced
wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]
There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?
pronunciation latin
add a comment |
The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,
[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]
It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced
wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]
There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?
pronunciation latin
In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.
– Lambie
7 hours ago
1
I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.
– Michael Harvey
3 hours ago
@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.
– tylerharms
2 hours ago
We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,
[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]
It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced
wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]
There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?
pronunciation latin
The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,
[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]
It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced
wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]
There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?
pronunciation latin
pronunciation latin
edited 5 hours ago
tylerharms
asked 7 hours ago
tylerharmstylerharms
6,91053063
6,91053063
In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.
– Lambie
7 hours ago
1
I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.
– Michael Harvey
3 hours ago
@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.
– tylerharms
2 hours ago
We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.
– Lambie
7 hours ago
1
I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.
– Michael Harvey
3 hours ago
@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.
– tylerharms
2 hours ago
We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.
– Lambie
7 hours ago
In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.
– Lambie
7 hours ago
1
1
I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.
– Michael Harvey
3 hours ago
I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.
– Michael Harvey
3 hours ago
@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.
– tylerharms
2 hours ago
@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.
– tylerharms
2 hours ago
We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English
For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.
Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.
Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).
These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.
The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.
The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.
The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.
That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)
I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.
It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.
1
The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.
– tylerharms
5 hours ago
I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).
– Andrew Leach♦
1 hour ago
add a comment |
English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf
However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.
That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.
– Lambie
6 hours ago
This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.
– tylerharms
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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active
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On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English
For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.
Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.
Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).
These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.
The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.
The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.
The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.
That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)
I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.
It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.
1
The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.
– tylerharms
5 hours ago
I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).
– Andrew Leach♦
1 hour ago
add a comment |
On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English
For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.
Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.
Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).
These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.
The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.
The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.
The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.
That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)
I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.
It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.
1
The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.
– tylerharms
5 hours ago
I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).
– Andrew Leach♦
1 hour ago
add a comment |
On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English
For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.
Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.
Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).
These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.
The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.
The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.
The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.
That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)
I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.
It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.
On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English
For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.
Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.
Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).
These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.
The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.
The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.
The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.
That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)
I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.
It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.
answered 6 hours ago
tchrist♦tchrist
110k30295476
110k30295476
1
The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.
– tylerharms
5 hours ago
I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).
– Andrew Leach♦
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.
– tylerharms
5 hours ago
I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).
– Andrew Leach♦
1 hour ago
1
1
The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.
– tylerharms
5 hours ago
The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.
– tylerharms
5 hours ago
I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).
– Andrew Leach♦
1 hour ago
I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).
– Andrew Leach♦
1 hour ago
add a comment |
English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf
However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.
That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.
– Lambie
6 hours ago
This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.
– tylerharms
6 hours ago
add a comment |
English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf
However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.
That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.
– Lambie
6 hours ago
This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.
– tylerharms
6 hours ago
add a comment |
English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf
However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.
English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf
However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.
answered 6 hours ago
Kate BuntingKate Bunting
6,58631518
6,58631518
That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.
– Lambie
6 hours ago
This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.
– tylerharms
6 hours ago
add a comment |
That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.
– Lambie
6 hours ago
This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.
– tylerharms
6 hours ago
That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.
– Lambie
6 hours ago
That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.
– Lambie
6 hours ago
This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.
– tylerharms
6 hours ago
This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.
– tylerharms
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.
– Lambie
7 hours ago
1
I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.
– Michael Harvey
3 hours ago
@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.
– tylerharms
2 hours ago
We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago