Difficulty understanding group delay conceptPhysical significance of group delayCalculating Circuit Delayphase wrapping group delayUnderstanding max and min propagation delay in flip-flopsEstimating via propagation delayHow to introduce delay to a signalGroup delay and phase delay of a filterCalculating Phase/Time Delay induced by a 2-pole Bandpass filter? ie. Group Delay?Is group delay the same as the delay of a certain frequency?Physical significance of positive group delay with negative phase delayDelay pulse (trigger) for a variable delay respectively to 0-5V input

Why are there no stars visible in cislunar space?

Nested Dynamic SOQL Query

Norwegian Refugee travel document

What is it called when someone votes for an option that's not their first choice?

Jem'Hadar, something strange about their life expectancy

10 year ban after applying for a UK student visa

If I cast enlarge/reduce on an arrow, what weapon could it count as?

Do I need an EFI partition for each 18.04 ubuntu I have on my HD?

Would it be believable to defy demographics in a story?

How do you justify more code being written by following clean code practices?

Align centered, ragged right and ragged left in align environment

Why do I have a large white artefact on the rendered image?

Asserting that Atheism and Theism are both faith based positions

Why is this tree refusing to shed its dead leaves?

Is "inadequate referencing" a euphemism for plagiarism?

How can an organ that provides biological immortality be unable to regenerate?

How do researchers send unsolicited emails asking for feedback on their works?

How to find the largest number(s) in a list of elements?

Isn't the word "experience" wrongly used in this context?

Turning a hard to access nut?

Single word to change groups

Should a narrator ever describe things based on a characters view instead of fact?

Can other pieces capture a threatening piece and prevent a checkmate?

What is the difference between something being completely legal and being completely decriminalized?



Difficulty understanding group delay concept


Physical significance of group delayCalculating Circuit Delayphase wrapping group delayUnderstanding max and min propagation delay in flip-flopsEstimating via propagation delayHow to introduce delay to a signalGroup delay and phase delay of a filterCalculating Phase/Time Delay induced by a 2-pole Bandpass filter? ie. Group Delay?Is group delay the same as the delay of a certain frequency?Physical significance of positive group delay with negative phase delayDelay pulse (trigger) for a variable delay respectively to 0-5V input













2












$begingroup$


I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$
















    2












    $begingroup$


    I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



    I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.










    share|improve this question









    $endgroup$














      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$


      I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



      I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.










      share|improve this question









      $endgroup$




      I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



      I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.







      delay group






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 5 hours ago









      user1999user1999

      417313




      417313




















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5












          $begingroup$

          (1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



          $ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
          times sin[w(t+$
          $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



          Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



          (2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



          Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



          From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



          We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



          $t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



          In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



          For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
            $endgroup$
            – Toor
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            58 mins ago


















          0












          $begingroup$

          Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



          Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



          The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



          As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago



















          0












          $begingroup$

          If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



          If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



          If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



          (Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            5 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
            $endgroup$
            – TimWescott
            4 hours ago











          Your Answer





          StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
          return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
          StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
          StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
          );
          );
          , "mathjax-editing");

          StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
          return StackExchange.using("schematics", function ()
          StackExchange.schematics.init();
          );
          , "cicuitlab");

          StackExchange.ready(function()
          var channelOptions =
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "135"
          ;
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
          createEditor();
          );

          else
          createEditor();

          );

          function createEditor()
          StackExchange.prepareEditor(
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader:
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          ,
          onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          );



          );













          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f427824%2fdifficulty-understanding-group-delay-concept%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes








          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5












          $begingroup$

          (1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



          $ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
          times sin[w(t+$
          $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



          Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



          (2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



          Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



          From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



          We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



          $t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



          In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



          For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
            $endgroup$
            – Toor
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            58 mins ago















          5












          $begingroup$

          (1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



          $ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
          times sin[w(t+$
          $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



          Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



          (2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



          Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



          From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



          We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



          $t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



          In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



          For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
            $endgroup$
            – Toor
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            58 mins ago













          5












          5








          5





          $begingroup$

          (1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



          $ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
          times sin[w(t+$
          $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



          Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



          (2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



          Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



          From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



          We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



          $t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



          In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



          For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          (1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



          $ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
          times sin[w(t+$
          $phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



          Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



          (2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



          Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



          From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



          We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



          $t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



          In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



          For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 1 hour ago









          Toor

          1,15519




          1,15519










          answered 4 hours ago









          LvWLvW

          14.6k21230




          14.6k21230











          • $begingroup$
            Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
            $endgroup$
            – Toor
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            58 mins ago
















          • $begingroup$
            Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
            $endgroup$
            – Toor
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
            $endgroup$
            – LvW
            58 mins ago















          $begingroup$
          Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          4 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          4 hours ago













          $begingroup$
          Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
          $endgroup$
          – LvW
          4 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
          $endgroup$
          – LvW
          4 hours ago













          $begingroup$
          If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          4 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          4 hours ago













          $begingroup$
          @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
          $endgroup$
          – Toor
          3 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
          $endgroup$
          – Toor
          3 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
          $endgroup$
          – LvW
          58 mins ago




          $begingroup$
          Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
          $endgroup$
          – LvW
          58 mins ago













          0












          $begingroup$

          Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



          Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



          The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



          As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago
















          0












          $begingroup$

          Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



          Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



          The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



          As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago














          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



          Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



          The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



          As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



          Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



          The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



          As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 5 hours ago









          Neil_UKNeil_UK

          77.7k284178




          77.7k284178











          • $begingroup$
            Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago

















          • $begingroup$
            Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            4 hours ago
















          $begingroup$
          Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          4 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          4 hours ago












          0












          $begingroup$

          If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



          If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



          If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



          (Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            5 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
            $endgroup$
            – TimWescott
            4 hours ago
















          0












          $begingroup$

          If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



          If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



          If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



          (Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            5 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
            $endgroup$
            – TimWescott
            4 hours ago














          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



          If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



          If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



          (Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



          If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



          If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



          (Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 4 hours ago

























          answered 5 hours ago









          TimWescottTimWescott

          5,9921415




          5,9921415











          • $begingroup$
            “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            5 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
            $endgroup$
            – TimWescott
            4 hours ago

















          • $begingroup$
            “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
            $endgroup$
            – user1999
            5 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
            $endgroup$
            – TimWescott
            4 hours ago
















          $begingroup$
          “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          5 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
          $endgroup$
          – user1999
          5 hours ago













          $begingroup$
          They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
          $endgroup$
          – TimWescott
          4 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
          $endgroup$
          – TimWescott
          4 hours ago


















          draft saved

          draft discarded
















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid


          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

          Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f427824%2fdifficulty-understanding-group-delay-concept%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          Ружовы пелікан Змест Знешні выгляд | Пашырэнне | Асаблівасці біялогіі | Літаратура | НавігацыяДагледжаная версіяправерана1 зменаДагледжаная версіяправерана1 змена/ 22697590 Сістэматыкана ВіківідахВыявына Вікісховішчы174693363011049382

          ValueError: Error when checking input: expected conv2d_13_input to have shape (3, 150, 150) but got array with shape (150, 150, 3)2019 Community Moderator ElectionError when checking : expected dense_1_input to have shape (None, 5) but got array with shape (200, 1)Error 'Expected 2D array, got 1D array instead:'ValueError: Error when checking input: expected lstm_41_input to have 3 dimensions, but got array with shape (40000,100)ValueError: Error when checking target: expected dense_1 to have shape (7,) but got array with shape (1,)ValueError: Error when checking target: expected dense_2 to have shape (1,) but got array with shape (0,)Keras exception: ValueError: Error when checking input: expected conv2d_1_input to have shape (150, 150, 3) but got array with shape (256, 256, 3)Steps taking too long to completewhen checking input: expected dense_1_input to have shape (13328,) but got array with shape (317,)ValueError: Error when checking target: expected dense_3 to have shape (None, 1) but got array with shape (7715, 40000)Keras exception: Error when checking input: expected dense_input to have shape (2,) but got array with shape (1,)

          Illegal assignment from SObject to ContactFetching String, Id from Map - Illegal Assignment Id to Field / ObjectError: Compile Error: Illegal assignment from String to BooleanError: List has no rows for assignment to SObjectError on Test Class - System.QueryException: List has no rows for assignment to SObjectRemote action problemDML requires SObject or SObject list type error“Illegal assignment from List to List”Test Class Fail: Batch Class: System.QueryException: List has no rows for assignment to SObjectMapping to a user'List has no rows for assignment to SObject' Mystery