Is there a korbon needed for conversion?Parashat Shemini + ParaWhy are modern conversions valid?Essential requirements of Jewish conversionDoes our literature discuss invalidating a conversion because the convert would not put his/her lot with the Jewish people?Children of Converts and Specific halachosWhat is the most successful way to do conversion for a Gentile girl in a relationship with a Jew?Does a halachically circumcised non-Jew need Hatafat Dam when converting?What does being put in cheirem mean for you and your descendants?Can a woman converting to Judaism go to the Mikvah during her period?Questions about Conversion to Reform JudaismIs it forbidden for a noachide (Non-Jew) to be circumcised?Is it a sin to deceive one's converting Beis Din?Where to convert? Please help

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Is there a korbon needed for conversion?



Parashat Shemini + ParaWhy are modern conversions valid?Essential requirements of Jewish conversionDoes our literature discuss invalidating a conversion because the convert would not put his/her lot with the Jewish people?Children of Converts and Specific halachosWhat is the most successful way to do conversion for a Gentile girl in a relationship with a Jew?Does a halachically circumcised non-Jew need Hatafat Dam when converting?What does being put in cheirem mean for you and your descendants?Can a woman converting to Judaism go to the Mikvah during her period?Questions about Conversion to Reform JudaismIs it forbidden for a noachide (Non-Jew) to be circumcised?Is it a sin to deceive one's converting Beis Din?Where to convert? Please help










4















A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?










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  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 hours ago






  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why are modern conversions valid?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago















4















A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?










share|improve this question
























  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 hours ago






  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why are modern conversions valid?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago













4












4








4








A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?










share|improve this question
















A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?







halacha conversion-to-judaism korban






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share|improve this question













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share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago









DonielF

16.3k12585




16.3k12585










asked 2 hours ago









Elchanan Ben AvrohomElchanan Ben Avrohom

413




413












  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 hours ago






  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why are modern conversions valid?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago

















  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 hours ago






  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why are modern conversions valid?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago
















related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

– rosends
2 hours ago





related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

– rosends
2 hours ago




3




3





Possible duplicate of Why are modern conversions valid?

– DonielF
1 hour ago





Possible duplicate of Why are modern conversions valid?

– DonielF
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















5














Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







share|improve this answer























  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    50 mins ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    49 mins ago












  • So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    48 mins ago











  • What is VTC?...

    – kouty
    5 mins ago


















1














Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna who didn't count him in the list says thinks he can eat Korban after circumcision and Mikve, but he cannot marry a Jewish woman.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara, Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as REBY.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If they need Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations.



In summary: You can say your Noachic friend that indeed his source is Gemara. But the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that nowadays, convert is truly Jew despite the lack of Korban.






share|improve this answer

























  • +1 - if it's not too complex, you may want a more precise translation of מלבוא בקהל than "marry with a Jew woman"

    – Y     e     z
    55 mins ago











  • wow that was fast

    – Y     e     z
    54 mins ago











  • @Y e z I am working on this

    – kouty
    54 mins ago


















2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

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5














Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







share|improve this answer























  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    50 mins ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    49 mins ago












  • So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    48 mins ago











  • What is VTC?...

    – kouty
    5 mins ago















5














Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







share|improve this answer























  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    50 mins ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    49 mins ago












  • So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    48 mins ago











  • What is VTC?...

    – kouty
    5 mins ago













5












5








5







Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







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Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.








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answered 2 hours ago









Double AADouble AA

78.5k6190414




78.5k6190414












  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    50 mins ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    49 mins ago












  • So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    48 mins ago











  • What is VTC?...

    – kouty
    5 mins ago

















  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    50 mins ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    49 mins ago












  • So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    48 mins ago











  • What is VTC?...

    – kouty
    5 mins ago
















So, he's not really Jewish?

– Y     e     z
50 mins ago





So, he's not really Jewish?

– Y     e     z
50 mins ago













@Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

– Double AA
49 mins ago






@Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

– Double AA
49 mins ago














So VTC as unclear?

– Y     e     z
48 mins ago





So VTC as unclear?

– Y     e     z
48 mins ago













What is VTC?...

– kouty
5 mins ago





What is VTC?...

– kouty
5 mins ago











1














Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna who didn't count him in the list says thinks he can eat Korban after circumcision and Mikve, but he cannot marry a Jewish woman.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara, Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as REBY.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If they need Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations.



In summary: You can say your Noachic friend that indeed his source is Gemara. But the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that nowadays, convert is truly Jew despite the lack of Korban.






share|improve this answer

























  • +1 - if it's not too complex, you may want a more precise translation of מלבוא בקהל than "marry with a Jew woman"

    – Y     e     z
    55 mins ago











  • wow that was fast

    – Y     e     z
    54 mins ago











  • @Y e z I am working on this

    – kouty
    54 mins ago















1














Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna who didn't count him in the list says thinks he can eat Korban after circumcision and Mikve, but he cannot marry a Jewish woman.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara, Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as REBY.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If they need Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations.



In summary: You can say your Noachic friend that indeed his source is Gemara. But the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that nowadays, convert is truly Jew despite the lack of Korban.






share|improve this answer

























  • +1 - if it's not too complex, you may want a more precise translation of מלבוא בקהל than "marry with a Jew woman"

    – Y     e     z
    55 mins ago











  • wow that was fast

    – Y     e     z
    54 mins ago











  • @Y e z I am working on this

    – kouty
    54 mins ago













1












1








1







Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna who didn't count him in the list says thinks he can eat Korban after circumcision and Mikve, but he cannot marry a Jewish woman.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara, Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as REBY.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If they need Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations.



In summary: You can say your Noachic friend that indeed his source is Gemara. But the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that nowadays, convert is truly Jew despite the lack of Korban.






share|improve this answer















Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna who didn't count him in the list says thinks he can eat Korban after circumcision and Mikve, but he cannot marry a Jewish woman.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara, Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as REBY.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If they need Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations.



In summary: You can say your Noachic friend that indeed his source is Gemara. But the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that nowadays, convert is truly Jew despite the lack of Korban.







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edited 13 mins ago

























answered 1 hour ago









koutykouty

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15k31846












  • +1 - if it's not too complex, you may want a more precise translation of מלבוא בקהל than "marry with a Jew woman"

    – Y     e     z
    55 mins ago











  • wow that was fast

    – Y     e     z
    54 mins ago











  • @Y e z I am working on this

    – kouty
    54 mins ago

















  • +1 - if it's not too complex, you may want a more precise translation of מלבוא בקהל than "marry with a Jew woman"

    – Y     e     z
    55 mins ago











  • wow that was fast

    – Y     e     z
    54 mins ago











  • @Y e z I am working on this

    – kouty
    54 mins ago
















+1 - if it's not too complex, you may want a more precise translation of מלבוא בקהל than "marry with a Jew woman"

– Y     e     z
55 mins ago





+1 - if it's not too complex, you may want a more precise translation of מלבוא בקהל than "marry with a Jew woman"

– Y     e     z
55 mins ago













wow that was fast

– Y     e     z
54 mins ago





wow that was fast

– Y     e     z
54 mins ago













@Y e z I am working on this

– kouty
54 mins ago





@Y e z I am working on this

– kouty
54 mins ago



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